about hand planes, from beginner user (sorry long)

[Ben in Gatineau]

I get it now, I'm hooked!

After planing all day the parts from my new project using my new bevel up LV smoother, and the aches in my arms, I realize how great hand planes are. Aside from the workout, they produce a very smooth ready to finish surface on the cherry I am using. I am now wondering up to what sanding paper grit I will have to go to obtain a matching smoothness on the curved parts? I got to 220, and still not as good looking.

This day was a learning experience on using the smoother, getting the right motions, adjusting everything and tweaking it for the wood it was chewing. I also learned about reading grain and how important it is to pay attention to it. I got to use the high angle blade to "erase" the tear out in some of the tricky grain boards I encountered. I was pleased that the blade change over is fast, but still wish I had 2 planes, so the adjustments are not lost when you change blades. Not that it takes very long to get the right settings back again, but I also found out that organizing the work better would have been beneficial.

By that I mean planing all parts using the standard blade (38 deg) and then returning to the parts with some tear out using the 50 deg blade. This would mean less fiddling with the plane. Also, now I look at the workbench in a whole new way. Mine is a tad too high, and not very well equipped for holding the parts to be planed. Also, making sure the planes will not encounter harder material that itself is a must, as I learned accidentally that a dent in the toe, as little as it may be is very undesirable...

Overall, I love this plane, and the other LV planes I have. The shoulder plane is a charm, easy and straightforward to use. The low angle block does it's job fine too. I also have a newer Record number 4 that I got at Lee Valley, but I now suspect they sold it just so you can appreciate the Veritas as what planes should be. My record is collecting dust, very frustrating tool, I decided to abandon trying, and got the bevel up smoother.

Now a question: which plane next? I got the bevel up smoother, the shoulder plane and the low angle block and a cabinet scraper. I am hesitating between the bull nose or the bevel up jack. I was thinking of the bevel up Jack with a high angle blade ready to back-up the smoother in case or tear out. But the bullnose is also attractive for its chisel plane mode, adding versatility like reaching for corners even sandpaper can’t get too. A regular block plane? Any suggestions? I'm not going to use the planes much for jointing and rough planing, as I will use the 6" jointer and 12" planer for that.

Thanks for your inputs. good day

Ben

[Jim in Burlington]

There's a couple of options either buying a card scraper my preference is for Bahco that LV sells and or using a spokeshave. The one with a cambered sole is the best of the lot IMO. The LV jack plane uses the same blades at the smoother. With the jack it opens up the possibity of shooting endgrain.

[Brent in Montreal]

Hi Ben,

You're never going to get the same look with sandpaper as with a plane. Sandpaper tears the grain and leaves a residue of dust that packs into the fibers, A plane shears the fibers and leaves them open. Light will reflect off the 2 differently. The closest you can get for the curved parts would be a spokeshave or possibly a card scraper.

If I was you, given what you already have, I would go with the Jack plane. It is suitable for alot of things, smoothing, jointing and as Jim mentioned, shooting end grain. The Bullnose is a more specialised tool. It's main purpose is cleaning up in stopped joints. It will make a welcome addition to your tool kit down the road, but for now there are other more versitile planes you could buy.

Amazing how nice it feels to use a plane isn't it? You get a beautifully finished piece of wood without the noise and mess of machines. IYou also get a real feeling of accomplishment knowing that there was no power ,other than yourself, involved in transforming it into what you want it to be. Planes are the ultimate woodworking tool. There are no other handtools that have such a variety of design and purpose. They let you do everything from fine tuning a joint to getting a piece ready for finishing. Just check out the difference in a piece that's had the final prep work done with a plane versus one that has been sanded, as you saw you can't compare the two.

[Ken in Regina]

If you want the same look and feel you will likely have to sand the planed surface at 220 to match the curved parts.

In the long run it won't make any difference if you are going to use a film finish, like poly. The film builds on top of the wood, so you make the film give the look and feel. The important thing is that the wood must all start from the same sanded, planed or scraped condition so it will take the first coat or two of finish identically.

If you are just doing an oil finish, sand all parts to a higher grit because the raw wood is what will affect the look and feel the most with no film over it. You can wet sand all parts with each coat of oil to as high a grit as you like. The higher grit you wet sand to, the smoother and silkier the finish. I did a bit of teak to 1000 grit with polymerized tung oil and Abralon sanding pads and that produced a really sensual surface.

...ken...

[Kerry in Fort Sask, AB]

I doubt you'd be disappointed with the Veritas LA Jack as your next addition. I bought it first (after fixing up a few older planes) then the bevel up smoother and find I make a lot of use of both of them (well, a lot for me, given the little time I get to ww). As Jim and Brent say above, the Jack is great for for shooting - something that's quite amazing in and of itself. If you plan to do more curved work a spokeshave would be a good move as well.

Of course, you couldn't go wrong with getting both! :lol:

Cheers,
Kerry

[Ben in Gatineau]

Wow, great replies. I should alsways ask in here before buying anything for the shop. So much knowledge and always pleasant to read what everyone has to share.

Even tough there is nothing like experiencing hands on to make ones opinion, some of us weekend warriors dont have much time and money to fiddle around tools we dont really need. Reading books and tool description is not alsways practical or convincing. Looking at the LV spokeshaves in the catalogue, I was very hesitant as to the usefullness of those things. Now I think they are going to my wish list. The bull nose plane was on order, but will cancel it (put it in my wish list for next x-mas) and order the LA jack. Wasn't too sure it would be needed, now I'm convinced. With the regular blade in the smoother, the extra high angle I got and the low in the LA Jack, I'll have all 3 blades, interchangeble for best results on the different wood grain.

As for the smoothing of the curved parts, I think the way will be card scrapers for now, thanks for everyones comment and advice on this. This way wont turn my curved parts to dust trying to match the hand plane smoothness. Another skill to discover, learn and practice. Probably will become a fan of those just as much as planes, once I know how to use and sharpen them. I'll get "hooked" again.

Hand tools are great. Started this hobby in 2001, collecting the electrical machines, and learning to use them. Now, I find not only the hand tools can do things the electrical can't, they can do it better and faster in some cases. Sure it takes time to practise the skills, but in my mind it's an investment. Anything you learn is an investment that cant be taken awayfrom you. Can't wait to retire, in 20 years, so I'll have more time to learn and use all these!


thanks again for advice and experience
Good day everyone
Ben

[Peterpan]

I go to 800 grit for blending in. Once you have it at 220, therefore flat etc... the extra grits don't take much time. At the moment I have some incredible 800, comes mounted on ROS discs, it's like a mylar backing, I'm sure I bought it for sharpening. It doesn't clog and it lasts for ever. I sand with paper right up to and including 800 paper, and then buff it with the 800 film.

[wanda]

Hi,

Since I already have a jointer and planer to dimension my lumber. What hand planes would you recommend for smoothing?

At the moment I own 0 planes. I was seriously considering purchasing a LV BU jack plane as my first plane. But since I own a planer perhaps I should consider purchasing a smoother instead. The jack is very versatiile but if I'm putting the lumber through a planer is a jack plane necessary. am I better off buying a LV BU smoother?

1. jack 2. smoother 3 jointer

From what I've read the LV BU smoother is used for cleaning up endgrain, miters, smoothing large surfaces as well as "shooting". The more I read the more confused I become.

I was all set to buy the Jack BU before I finished reading the post on this forum.

I'm mostly working with pine, ash, oak maple and poplar

Can the LV BU jack plane be used to do the final smoothing? I take it that would require a higher bevel blade 45/50. Is a dedicated smoother with it's higher bevel blade better for the job? LV #4 1/2 smoother?

oh my so much to choose from.

Wanda

[Kerry in Fort Sask, AB]

Wanda,

Even with a jointer and planer, the jack would get used more than the smoother in my experience. If you're anything like me, you'll find more and more uses for the jack, whereas the smoother is only for smoothing - period. The jack does a really good job of smoothing anyway, except it can be slightly unwieldy on smaller parts.

As I've said before, I'd be amazed if you ever regretted that purchase. You could always get the jack, try it out for smoothing and if you don't like it send it back and get the smoother (but I bet you keep it!).

Regards,
Kerry

[Brad in Ottawa]

It is really to get confused! The best cure for that is to buy one of everything!

You mentioned that you were considering the LV BU Jack. I would stick with that plan. (Denis Chenard will be along soon to ditto this. Perhaps even Derek Cohen?)

You can use the LV BU Jack for smoothing no problem. I am not certain if you are asking if it would require a 45/50 degree blade or if you are including the angle of the bed in that figure (12 degrees). If you meant the latter than you would be spot on. A 50 degree blade would provide a 62 degree angle which is pretty high for the woods you are listing.

(Coles Notes version: Buy the LV BU Jack with a 38 degree blade.)

(Longer Coles Notes: You want your effective angle to be 45 to 50 degrees for typical hardwoods. The higher angles above 50 degrees produce a different type of shaving which reduces tearout in difficult woods with some tradeoffs.)

Why would you want a smoother? Smoothers are smaller in length so that they can ride the hills and valleys of irregular surfaces. Given that you are doing stock prep with planers and jointers you shouldn't have too many irregularities compared to a compulsive hand tool enthusiast. Given the versatility of the BU Jack it would be the better plane to start with.

As I have said before on this forum... let me know if I can obfuscate my answer some more for you! (Coles Notes version: I can confuse you some more if you want!)

HTH!

Brad

[OttawaP]

This sounds so much like a thread I started 6 months ago. Buy the LV jack it's great. Finally bought the last blade, the 50 deg this week and used it today on some cherry. Great results, no tearout on nice 1/4 sawn wood with some flame to it. It was a quite a workout compared to the 38 deg, but lots of fun. With all 3 blades this plane is unstoppable.

Paul

[Denis Chénard in Ottawa]

I've said it time and time again, the Low Angle Jack is the best plane Veritas has ever made, period. I use it as my über smoother, even if I have other planes I could use for that task. Just the right heft, fantastic balance, and wonderfully versatile.

Yes, it is long for a smoother, which is both an advantage and a drawback. Being longer makes it easier to get and maintain a flat surface. OTOH its length makes it unsuitable to work on localized areas of tearout. But to be honest with you, with the proper iron honed sharp, I don't get tearout areas.

DC

[wanda]

Hi,

Yup, that name rings a bell. Derek Cohen is also a member of the Fine Woodworking forum (Knots forum). I've read his replies to my post on hand planes on Knots. :)

Consensus.. The Jack plane comes out on top!

So with it's longer sole 15" I assume it's equivalent to the LN 5 1/2 plane (Heavy smoother) which is what Rob Cosman used mostly in his Drawer Making dvd. Which he liked because it was long and heavy enough to do a good job on the shooting board and not too big to use as a smoother on the bench.

As long as it's not too awkward for smoothing drawer parts (sides/fronts/backs) and it can smooth dovetails .. I might as well purchase the LV BU Jack considering it's not going to cost me an arm and a leg.

How easy are those LV BU plane irons to sharpen?

I gave the Scary Sharp method of sharpening a try today for the first time. Now to try out that chisel tomorrow when I go to make a few practice dovetails.

Anyone here familiar with that method of sharpening? I think it would save time and money in the long run if I just invested in 3 good waterstones. But at least it's a start for a beginner like myself.

Can't wait to get my hands on that Jack plane.. :) I'd do anything to avoid sanding. Way too much dust. Not good for the lungs especially when working in a confined place. Handtools are nice and quiet! YOu don't have to worry about disturbing people late at night when you're working on a project.

wAnda

[ERic In Nova Scotia]

Hey wAnda,

You will find that the LV LA Jack is the most versatile bench (term used loosly) Plane you might ever own. They do however require a little more care when sharpening. This is because YOU control the effective cutting angle.
The bed is set at 12 degrees, and your bevel makes up the rest. A consistant bevel angle accross the whole blade is necessary as per the wood you are working on.

Don't let that scare you though, if I can do it?

Well it just takes a little practice, and I'm sure you're up for that.

Have fun!

[Mike in Orangeville]

How easy are those LV BU plane irons to sharpen?

I gave the Scary Sharp method of sharpening a try today for the first time. Now to try out that chisel tomorrow when I go to make a few practice dovetails.

The irons aren't hard to sharpen. Because they're so thick it takes longer to do the 'grinding' aspect of the sharpening process, but when you're just touching up a micro-bevel it's certainly not a big deal. They _save_ you time at first because the back of the blade is already lapped. This is a big deal!

As for 'Scary Sharp', you can buy a fair pile of sandpaper for the cost of three decent water stones, and the sandpaper will never need to be flattened.