Rob Lee, How about a LeeValley limited addition Infill plane

[Chris in Pickering]

As a lover of hand tools and the owner of a small collection of user planes I have recently become curious and have done some research on infill planes.
There are only a handful of modern manufacturers that make reproductions of the Norris A5 and A6 planes but for the most part they are not affordable for the average hobbist.
I am not in the manufacturing business, but it is my opinion that if Rob Lee and company came out with a Infill smoother in the $399 or $499.00 range it would be a huge success! I personally would pay more.....
I love Lee Valley, for its service and quality (not to mention it is only 1 km from work!) and I am supprised that they have never considered a Infill.....

[matt]

As a lover of hand tools and the owner of a small collection of user planes I have recently become curious and have done some research on infill planes.
There are only a handful of modern manufacturers that make reproductions of the Norris A5 and A6 planes but for the most part they are not affordable for the average hobbist.
I am not in the manufacturing business, but it is my opinion that if Rob Lee and company came out with a Infill smoother in the $399 or $499.00 range it would be a huge success! I personally would pay more.....
I love Lee Valley, for its service and quality (not to mention it is only 1 km from work!) and I am supprised that they have never considered a Infill.....

I've only ever seen pictures of an infill plane. What are the advantages over a bailey style plane or a woodie?

[Darrell]

I've only ever seen pictures of an infill plane. What are the advantages over a bailey style plane or a woodie?

Mass. Tight mouth. Thick iron. Solid bedding. Looks cool.

That said, a bronze LN 4-1/2 has alll those things too. If you're planing domestic North American timber, even figured stuff, a basic pre-WWII Stanley will handle almost anything you need to smooth. But it needs to be sharp and well tuned. A Bailey style plane is intended to peform many tasks, which is why the frog is adjustable, and the iron is bedded at 45 degrees. A good average plane for average woods. The LN is a step up from the ordinary Bailey pattern plane. It should easily handle any wood you want to plane, short of the most extreme figured hardwoods.

An infill is a specialized tool, intended for smoothing and not much good for anything else. Many infills have higher bedding angles. A well-tuned infill should be able to handle figured exotic woods. Plane with, against, or across the grain, it makes no difference. Infills are very precise tools.

Now, a wooden plane has all the attributes an infill has, except the mass. Check out a Knight smoother or a Clark & Williams. They have extremely tight mouths, very thick irons, good bedding, and usually a higher bed angle too. They work as well as any other plane, and have the advantage that you can tune them up more easily (flattening the sole is sure easier with wood than iron!). They're made of wood after all.

Darrell

[Chris in Pickering]

Darrell,

I dont want to correct you but I own a #4 Bronze from LN and I just ordered a 4 1/2...... Are you sure LN makes a bronze # 4 1/2??? I dont think they do....

Matt, I will point out that I do not consider myself a expert on the subject but I would say that the design of the infill itself has allot to do with solidness, rigidness and mass of this style of plane. The closed handle offers more support over a conventional Bailey style handle. Also, the Brits typically bedded their plane blades @ 47 1/2 or 50 degrees, which makes it a little harder to push thru the stroke, but also makes it a better all around performer.
I will also point out that the infill style of plane was not just a smoother, but a Jack (panel plane) or jointer.

[Dustmaker]

What is an infill plane? Is this just a different construction and adjustments? Is there a web site where I could read about different types?

Thanks,
dm

[Ed in Oakville]

Hi dm.

There are some very highend infill makers out there but Norris, Spiers are some of the better known vintage planemakers. http://www.sauerandsteiner.com is a Canadian maker but there are Wayne Anderson and Karl Holtley to name a couple. Check out their websites for some additional details. I would love to get my hands on anyone of them but can't justify the cost yet!!

Ed

[Chris in Pickering]

This was the point of my post Ed...... I am aware of all the modern makers of the infill plane, but they are too costly. A complany as large as Lee Valley could produce in much larger numbers and therefor keep the cost affordable.... I dont know about you but I would not spend $3000 for a Sauer and Steiner and use it.... I would be afraid of scratching it....
Even Ray Iles infill planes sell for $900.00 USD .....
I think Lee Valley could produce a good quality user infill plane and sell it at a fair price.... My opinion is that they would sell tonnes of them....

[matt]

This was the point of my post Ed...... I am aware of all the modern makers of the infill plane, but they are too costly. A complany as large as Lee Valley could produce in much larger numbers and therefor keep the cost affordable.... I dont know about you but I would not spend $3000 for a Sauer and Steiner and use it.... I would be afraid of scratching it....
Even Ray Iles infill planes sell for $900.00 USD .....
I think Lee Valley could produce a good quality user infill plane and sell it at a fair price.... My opinion is that they would sell tonnes of them....

It would be really interesting to see what the production costs of an infill versus a standard metal plane would be like. I can think of reasons why it wouldn't be much more, but then again, I can think of reasons why it would be significantly more. I guess like all mass produced items, the manufacturer would have to balance the old quality vs price ratio...

[Chris in Pickering]

For a company that has designed and manufactured many inovative products and has all the high tech CNC toys, I would think that it would be a easy task for Lee Valley....
I could only assume that the small makers of modern infill planes do allot more hand work to produce a plane than Lee Valley would have too.

[Brent in Montreal]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Rob Lee saying that they had, or were, looking into infills.

[Ed in Oakville]

Good morning guys,

The Halton Furniture Makers Society hosted a presentation by Konrad Sauer this past Spring. He had a slide presentation illustrating the time consuming steps involved in making a infill panel plane. I don't know about all the other makers out there but his planes are all about handwork. I could not believe the number of steps involved in making a infill. Some of the metal components are initially machine cut but the rest is hours of hand work. My opinion is they are worth the cost.

I agree with pickeringwoodworker that I would be terrified to even take it out of the box. Also, to matt's point. i really think that quality infills cannot be production made. Kits perhaps but not completed ones.

Ed

[Chris in Pickering]

If military standard, and aircraft quality parts can be CNC made, surely A simple infill plane could be....
I dont need dovetail construction for a user infill, nor do I need a limited addition work of art....
I believe that companys like Sauer and Steiner, the hand made element is part of the romance of these planes and this in turn comes at a cost...
I would think that with modern machines they could pump out many more planes of equall or greater quality, but at a lower cost.... From a business perspective why would you sell 5 times the amount of product only to make the same amount of profit.
Reasons like this are why I believe that Lee Valley would do well in the production infill market....

My opinions are not based on education as I have none.....

[matt]

I dont need dovetail construction for a user infill, nor do I need a limited addition work of art....

seems like a great fit doesn't it. While I like the look of them, many seem to feel that Veritas planes place a higher emphasis on performance over looks. An "ugly" infill would fit right in. I'll quote myself here and say what I always tell my wife when I wear my "relaxed" clothes to work... "It aint a fashion show...".

[Chris in Pickering]

I agree with you Matt, are my LV bevel up planes the most handsome in my collection? Probably not, but they do one hell of a job.....
I have no interest in buying planes to collect. I just want to woodwork.....

[Frank D.]

If LV comes up with an infill I hope that they innovate like they did on some of their other planes. No dovetailed plates but a steel channel (which would be cheaper and more solid). They'd have to watch out not to make it too homely though, because the infill market (especially) probably wants a relatively traditional look.

[Norman (Ottawa)]

Good morning guys,

The Halton Furniture Makers Society hosted a presentation by Konrad Sauer this past Spring. He had a slide presentation illustrating the time consuming steps involved in making a infill panel plane. I don't know about all the other makers out there but his planes are all about handwork. I could not believe the number of steps involved in making a infill. Some of the metal components are initially machine cut but the rest is hours of hand work. My opinion is they are worth the cost.


Ed

Ed, We had Konrad as a speaker at the Rosewood Furniture Conference a month or so ago. Most of the talk revolved around a slide show about how he makes the infills and the laborious work involved. I recall turning to our small group and muttering.. I'll gladly pay that price for a handmade infill of that caliber ( if I could afford one that is).. There is so much detailed work involved, and you're right, it's all about handwork and precision.

Norman

[Ed in Oakville]

Hi Norman,

Konrad was actually using us as guinea pigs on the Thursday before his Rosewood presentation. He wanted to make sure he kept presentation within a certain time (half hour?). I too was amazed how manual labour intensive his planes are but the end product said it all. Never saw a infill live before that and I was really blown away.

BTW, I heard you guys had a number of key speakers that weekend. Very envious!

Ed

[Chris in Pickering]

Rob Lee normally keeps an eye on posts like this..... Maybe he did not respond because the new catalogue will have a infill in it!!!!

[Chris in Pickering]

Here is a post from Rob Lee in another forum today:

#39 Today, 9:25 AM
Rob Lee
Member Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Mittlefehldt

(snip)

Funny thing Rob Lee said something rather cryptic in a post hereabouts the other day, something about covering the basic market and now maybe looking at the more decorative up market sort of tools, I have no idea what he was referring to so I guess we will have to wait. That is unless he shows us one of those concept drawings he has been known to splash around once in a while.

You have any idea MIke?


Hi James...

Bite your tongue! Decorative tools....!

Ok - we are going to do some "premium" tools - but they too, will be new designs... not just a material switch, engraving, or some such thing. What we will be doing is removing the some of the cost restraints from our designers, which will open up different choices for materials, processes, and even finishes. We'll also work to much higher tolerances - despite the diminished returns of doing so...

The first tool is in early pre-production stages now... and almost every person who's seen it wants it...whether or not they already have one or more...

These will take drool to a completely new level....and without requiring a mortgage....


Cheers -

Rob



Could he be talking about a infill plane?

[derekcohen]

Could he be talking about a infill plane?

No... :P

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brent in Montreal]

Hi Derek,

You obviously have an inside track, and since Rob isn't replying to this thread, how about it.......you going to spill the beans :) .

[derekcohen]

No 8)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brent in Montreal]

Oh well, had to give it a shot :wink:

[Chris in Pickering]

Brent..... You and I could drive to LV head office in a afternoon. Derek is 15000 KM's away and he knows more about them than us..... Is there something wrong with this picture?

To be honest, I was hoping for a LV infill and since Derek has confirmed that they are not doing one there is nothing else that I could possibly get excited about.

[Rob Lee]

To be honest, I was hoping for a LV infill and since Derek has confirmed that they are not doing one there is nothing else that I could possibly get excited about.

Hi -

Came to this thread late.....

No current plans to do infills, or infill kits.... though we have done a few concepts.

There are already a number of excellent infill makers out there, and we just wouldn't have anything to add. All we could do, is damage current producers....

Cheers -

Rob

(but you'll still want what we are doing.... :) )

[Steve in Ayr]

Rob

and we would know what we want, when??? Throw us a bone.

Steve

[Rob Lee]

Rob

and we would know what we want, when??? Throw us a bone.

Steve

Hi Steve -

Just got back from vacation, so not sure what the project status is....but it's most likely after Christmas...

Perhaps we'll even take advance orders for it - who knows ....:)

There'll be lots more to tempt you meanwhile though!

Cheers -

Rob

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont.]

Hi Steve -

Just got back from vacation, so not sure what the project status is....but it's most likely after Christmas...

Perhaps we'll even take advance orders for it - who knows ....:)

There'll be lots more to tempt you meanwhile though!

Cheers -

Rob

O Gawd Rob,

Now what should I not buy till spring??