Lightning Surge Protector for Electrical Panel.

[Lost in the Woods]

I recently saw a Holmes on Homes where they were installing on the main electrical panel a lightning surge protector that protects the whole house from a potentially devastating lightning surge. I think it was said it costs $500.

Does anyone know if this is the unit price plus the installation cost?

Do you need a permit to install one of these?

Does it need to be added when the panel is being installed, or can it be easily enough added afterwards?

Can I myself add this, as I know how to add breakers myself?

I live in a sub division, is this item unnecessary overkill?

[Lost in the Woods]

Or is it simply that my timing to post this, worked out poorly?

[Mike in London]

Or is it simply that my timing to post this, worked out poorly?


I don't think your timing is off, I just don't think anyone knows. I've been in the trade for 23 years and I'd never heard of it.

I just did a Google search, apparently they are available, the suggestion was made to contact your local Utility. As far as a permit..... Electrical permits are now required for all electrical work, whether it be repair, renovation or new construction.

Mike

[Ronnchy]

The surge protector or TVSS (transient voltage surge suppressor) can be added to your panel at any time. You just need a 2pole breaker to add it. Size of the tvss will dictate the size of tvss. Look at Rayvoss.com for info.
The only items in my house that I'd be worried about a lightning surge would be the computer and the audio/video equipment. I use a $60.00 450watt battery backup/surge protector that that I bought at a computer supply store. I have one for my computer and a 700watt unit for my A/V eq't. Not only does it protect my eq't from surges, they give me about 5 minutes of battery power when the power goes out. Plenty of time to safely power down all my sensitive equipment.

[Lost in the Woods]

I recently saw a Holmes on Homes where they were installing on the main electrical panel a lightning surge protector that protects the whole house from a potentially devastating lightning surge. I think it was said it costs $500.

Does anyone know if this is the unit price plus the installation cost?

Do you need a permit to install one of these?

Does it need to be added when the panel is being installed, or can it be easily enough added afterwards?

Can I myself add this, as I know how to add breakers myself?

I live in a sub division, is this item unnecessary overkill?

Old thread that I started long ago that I triped back onto. Anybody have any more recent info on this?

Has anybody done this, and are the components any cheaper now?

[stevem]

since you brought it up, i would be interested too

sure we have sp's on our puter and entertainment stuff, but now even fridges and other appliances have sensitive electronics in them, not to mention a 5000 buck furnace!!

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Markets/Electrical/Products/PowerQualityManagement/TransientVoltageSurgeSuppression/LightCommercialSurgeProtectionCVL/index.htm

im guessing that this type of thing is required

any body else know anything?

[ArtMulder]

My folks had a lightning strike fry part of their household electronics -- but only certain stuff/circuits. It hit the pole outside their house, so their neighbour got it also.

I live in a newer subdivision, with all wiring buried, so I'm really doubtful that I need something like this. :confused: I wouldn't mind hearing more about it and how it works though, lightning is a lot of juice, it can't be trivial to build something that will quickly and safely trip and shunt it to ground.

[Dan Brinson]

I looked into this about 2 years ago as the pole at the end of my driveway has been hit twice in the past 6 or 7 years. It fried the transformer on the pole both times. I have a light timmer that had to be replaced both times and the last time my surge bar for my TV was fried. It was replaced under waranty. HD sells the whole house protector for around $60 for a secondary and $185 for the whole house 5yr wrnty look up surge suppression on their website. I still havn't bought one.

[Bob just past Ayr]

I am somewhat familiar with a surge protector like Ron mentioned. We used them in barns that the heating and ventilation was controlled by European controls and they were more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than most controls made here. The surge protectors worked very well as we had no problems once they were installed. They simply taped into each line (220 V) and filtered out fluctuations in the power. They cost several hundred dollars if not more. They were not cheep but they worked well.

[Gene45]

The only thing I have ever heard of this type of thing was that they do protect the house but may require replacement after being 'used ' once. I don't recall the price but I must have thought it was too expensive at the time because I did not buy one. :D

As to the $5000 furnace somebody has, it is likely only the control board would be at risk.

I have a water heater with a control board that got fried because of a power surge (caused by the wire and poles provider). It cost about $100 to replace it. The original one said to wire it to a 120 volt circuit, and I did that. :thumbup:

The replacement could be wired for either 120 volt or 24 volt. So I hooked it to the 24 volt circuit. Any surge that could damage it would likely destroy many other things too.

[Wayne - Oakville]

As to the $5000 furnace somebody has, it is likely only the control board would be at risk.


In case anyone wonders, the circuit board for my Carrier Hi-efficiency furnace cost about $510 plus GST/installation in 2003. I don't think this was surge related -- just needed replacement on the then 8 year old furnace.

...Wayne

[willr]

The surge protector or TVSS (transient voltage surge suppressor) can be added to your panel at any time. You just need a 2pole breaker to add it. Size of the tvss will dictate the size of tvss. Look at Rayvoss.com for info.
The only items in my house that I'd be worried about a lightning surge would be the computer and the audio/video equipment. I use a $60.00 450watt battery backup/surge protector that that I bought at a computer supply store. I have one for my computer and a 700watt unit for my A/V eq't. Not only does it protect my eq't from surges, they give me about 5 minutes of battery power when the power goes out. Plenty of time to safely power down all my sensitive equipment.


This is the best tip in the thread I think.

Additionally...
As others stated -- You need a permit.

It does protect the whole house.

Most of the other information in the thread is what I would call "hopeful information".

A lot more than computers and AV equipment is "sensitive" these days -- even your woodworking stuff has control boards these days.

If you can afford it -- one strike or nearby hit will pay for it.

When lightning hits nearby you get an EMP (like the weapons) -- and induced electromagnetic pulse. Any wire run of "sufficient length" will pick up a pulse from a nearby strike. There are so many variables it is almost impossible to say how close the strike need be and how long the "pick up wire" need be etc.

If you can afford it -- get one. If you add a new panel -- get one.

I have seen them at HD or Lowes -- for example -- maybe both -- just go and ask.

Anybody doing house wiring these days should know about them.

As for commercial wiring -- for office buildings -- there should be equivalent equipment somewhere.

A UPS for your computer equipment should be there as well -- that is a different issue. It takes time to shut down -- a lot of equipment can take 10Min. to shut down -- 900VA is kinda the minimum imo.

A voltage regulator is a different beast.

Surge suppressors for the Whole House TVSS -- a different beast again -- all have different applications.

In some commercial applications I have specified and used all of them as appropriate.

For expensive printers -- get a "hunk of iron" -- a transformer type regulator -- they afford some spike protection. A UPS generally cannot supply a printer -- too many rapid current draw periods.
If a bad storm is approaching -- yank incoming cable or telephone lines. At the very least they should have transient suppression or optical isolators. We replace printers and faxes on a regular basis in counties with violent storms.

[Al from Brooks]

So far the reason to install one of these is for a lightning strike. When you consider the energy of this there really is nothing that will protect froma direct strike. However, there are other good reasons to instll a surge arrestor onto your incoming line. As well as induced emf's from an indirect lightning strike, there are harmonics induced onto the line for several reasons. Any silicon switching devices will put junk on the line. So electronic speed controllers used on treadmills, mixmasters, routers, lathes, etc. can and will do this. If you have radios that buzz or you get funny lines across your TV when a certain piece of equipment is running is an indicator of this. Also, utilities that switch on and off generating equipment to manage peak loading can induce harmful spikes and surges on the line. If your line comes off a line that feeds heavy industry are susceptable. Even cheap fourescent light ballasts can put junk on the line. Good ballasts have surge suppression incorporated.

At the very least, you should have surge protection on sensitive electronics. Stereos, TV's, computers, etc. A combination of service panel and local anti surge devices is the best protection and, I believe it is warannted.

Do a google search on surge protection. There's a butt load of info on them. The devices are rated in joules and max voltages. Good ones will guarantee your equipment if they fail to protect properly. (good luck trying to prove this). Also, they are not forever devices. If they have to work a lot they don't last as long. Good ones can be purchased from stereo and TV retailers, but they are more money. I purchased mine online for about $100. I'm talking about one I put on my TV/stereo. I haven't installed one on my panel yet. Soon though.

Very best,

Al

[Mike in Orangeville]

Someone asked about big commercial buildings. Large buildings and factories that have substations have the protection in the substation. There are lightning arrestors on each incoming line. There are essentially a big stack of MOVs that the current has to fight its way through to get to the transformer. A lightning strike on the sub-station will blow the arrestors and the power can't continue through. Large buildings also tend to have large capacitor banks for power factor correction which can help clean up the power signal.
My experience has been that lightning isn't a worry in a factory - the real problem is the power dropping on one phase but remaining on the other two. Three phase motors will try to keep going under these conditions, but will draw significantly more amperage. I remember having to replace half a dozen contactors and overload units one day after that happened. It was a pain in the butt. At least we didn't lose any big motors.

[westom]

Old thread that I started long ago that I triped back onto. Anybody have any more recent info on this?
For over 100 years, that 'whole house' protector has been the routine solution to surges - including direct lightning strikes. To understand the concept, start with what we were all taught in elementary school science.

Lightning would strike church steeples. Why? Lightning seeks earth ground. A wooden church steeple is a more conductive path to earth. But wood is not conductive enough. That 10,000 amps through wood created a voltage. 10,000 amps times voltage is energy dissipated destructively in the church.

Surges can never be stopped. Franklin installed a lightning rod. Why? Again, what does lightning seek? The lightning rod connects 10,000 amps to earth on a path that is more conductive. Near zero voltage. 10,000 amps times near zero volts is near zero energy. Nothing destroyed. Effective protection because the energy is harmlessly absorb by the protection - earth ground.

Many see the lightning rod. Argue about things irrelevant such as pointed verses blunt rods. The protection is only as effective as the one item forgotten - because it is not seen. Earthing electrode.

Later we installed transistors in homes. Lightning striking wires down the street seeks earth ground destructively via those transistors. Same problem requires the same solution. Each incoming wire in every cable must connect to earth before entering the building. Energy must be dissipated in the protection.

How do you have telephone or AC electric service with every wire connected to earth? So we install a connecting device - a 'whole house' surge protector.

Any protector that stops or absorbs surges is the new scam. Any protector that connects surges short (ie 'less than 3 meters') to earth is the solution even over 100 years ago. What did operators do when a thunderstorm arrived? Remove headsets and learn the room? Of course not. Operators worked through every thunderstorm because 'whole house' protectors were earthed even that long ago.

Again, the point. A protector is only as effective as what provides protection - earth ground.

Now for your solution. Only more responsible companies sell effective protectors such as General Electric, Keison, Siemens, Intermatic, Square D, Intermatic, Clipsal, Polyphaser ... How do you identify the effective solutions? 1) Each has a dedicated wire for earthing. 2) Manufacturer discusses what provides the protection - earthing.

Your earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 electrical codes. Not only must your breaker box connect short to earth. Other factors are required to exceed code requirements. Earth ground wire must be as short as possible. No sharp bends. Not inside metallic conduit. Separated from other non-grounding wires.

For example, if a quarter inch bare copper wire goes up over the foundation and down to an electrode. Wire too long. Too many sharp bends. Wire bundled with other wires above the breaker box. Ground wire must go through the foundation and down to a single point earth ground.

All other incoming utilities also connect short to that same ground. Cable needs no protector. Cable connects 'less than 3 meters' using only wire and before entering the building. Same for satellite dish.

Telephones have had 'whole house' protection for probably your entire life. You may have seen early versions:
http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg (http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg)
See that center nut? That must connect to earth.

Today, the protector is inside an NID - where telco wires meet yours. But you are responsible for earth ground. How to make the telco's 'installed for free' protector more effective? How long is the wire to single point earth? How good is your earthing?

NIST (US government research agency) says what every protector must do:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What
> these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge,
> but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Protection is about where energy dissipated. Either you dissipate surges (even direct lightning strikes) harmlessly in earth. Or that energy goes hunting for earth destructively inside your home. Your choice. Only you determine is surge damage may happen.

What must a plug-in protector do? Stop and absorb that surge energy. Will that little 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Will its few hundred joules absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Those educated by retail propaganda say yes. Those who learned what has been well understood and routinely installed for the past 100 years say, "bullshit".

Defined is what the protector does (a connecting device) and what absorbs surge energy (earth). Your telco's computer is connected to overhead wires all over town. Can suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. How often has your town been without service for four days while they replace their computer? Telcos everywhere in the world use 'whole house' protectors with even better earthing. And do not use plug-in protectors - that cost tens or 100 times more money per protected appliance.

Lightning is not the only type of surge. AC utility switching also created the same type of transient. High voltage wire dropping on service. Transients created by a failing appliance. One 'whole house' protector also addresses these. Even plug-in protectors can require protection provided by one 'whole house' protector.

Worse, how many knew any of this? Obviously, soundbytes cannot explain any of this. So many never learn. Many only buy what is recommended by the retail salesman.

All appliances contain significant protection. Protection that can be overwhelmed by the rare and destructive surge. Earth only one 'whole house' protector so that a surge (once every seven years) does not damage anything inside the house - dishwasher, furnace, clock radio, etc. How often are your surges?

An effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance to protect from all types of surges. Install protectors so that a rare surge results in no damage. Install an effective protector so that nobody even knows a surge existed. Protector must not be damaged even by a direct lightning strike. Nothing new. Effective protectors were patented in the 1880s. The technology is that old and that well proven.

But again, the bottom line as even Franklin demonstrated in 1752: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[lormahoykyd2007]

My folks had a lightning strike fry part of their household electronics -- but only certain stuff/circuits. It hit the pole outside their house, so their neighbour got it also.

I live in a newer subdivision, with all wiring buried, so I'm really doubtful that I need something like this. :confused: I wouldn't mind hearing more about it and how it works though, lightning is a lot of juice, it can't be trivial to build something that will quickly and safely trip and shunt it to ground.


Forget about the buried lines and check out this episode of Tekzilla

http://revision3.com/tekzilla/thebackupepisode

It is episode 130 and it talks about a new guy at the electric, Hydro company for our northern friends, that blew out a whole neighborhood with his screw-up. Yes this happens. If you think the electric company will take responsibility think again.

Check out the whole house protectors that Mike Holmes uses. They install in your breaker panel and shut down before the surge enters your home.

[Rod Sheridan]

Forget about the buried lines and check out this episode of Tekzilla

http://revision3.com/tekzilla/thebackupepisode

It is episode 130 and it talks about a new guy at the electric, Hydro company for our northern friends, that blew out a whole neighborhood with his screw-up. Yes this happens. If you think the electric company will take responsibility think again.

Check out the whole house protectors that Mike Holmes uses. They install in your breaker panel and shut down before the surge enters your home.

Funny you should mention that, in 2008 I was in Salluit because the utility was doing some transformer work and accidently fed us from the 4,160 line instead of the 240 volt secondary line.

When I got there, our mast was blown off the building, and the ejected previously burning kilowatt hour meter was about 30 metres away.

Fortunately our electronic equipment was protected by the DC plant, the rectifiers however didn't fair so well. :D

We were lucky, even though we were in Nunavik, we had a low resistance ground grid, which helped the TSS's. We faired much better than the CBC building beside us.

So yes a good design will help reduce the damage, however if the transient is powerful enough, you can't prevent damage.

Regards, Rod.