Help needed: Basement walls part 2 - electrical

[Jason in Sudbury]

Ok, so things are going well for now.

I am almost ready to run my wires and I have one question. They had the room (14X20) on one circuit (and it's a 20 amp - with 14ga wire).

Here is the current electrical: one lead from the breaker panel (off the 20 amp breaker), then just before it gets in the room, there is a junction box (in the drop ceiling - so it's exposed) and then the run is split in two, one run for one side of the room and the other run feeds the other side.

Here is what I am thinking are my 2 options:

I am replacing the wire with new wire (14ga) and I am just wondering if it will be better if:
1. I lead 2 runs back to the breaker panel and then buy a 15 amp breaker to replace the 20 amp(my panel is full - small panel 100 amp panel with a 200 amp service)? Or :

2. Do I keep it as is: one run, then split for both sides of the room at the junction point, leading new wire?

Can you put two circuits on one breaker? Does the breaker treat the circuits as separate, protecting both? (ie. does one breaker protect two circuits like two breakers protecting each an individual circuit - hope you know what I mean here!)

The room will be divided in two: one half will have a tv, dvd player and satellite box, and the other half will be occupied by a desk for my wife to do her scrapbooking on (so maybe a table lamp there).

Hope you can help and know what I mean!

[J.P. Rap]

Ok, so things are going well for now.

I am almost ready to run my wires and I have one question. They had the room (14X20) on one circuit (and it's a 20 amp - with 14ga wire).

Here is the current electrical: one lead from the breaker panel (off the 20 amp breaker), then just before it gets in the room, there is a junction box (in the drop ceiling - so it's exposed) and then the run is split in two, one run for one side of the room and the other run feeds the other side.

Here is what I am thinking are my 2 options:

I am replacing the wire with new wire (14ga) and I am just wondering if it will be better if:
1. I lead 2 runs back to the breaker panel and then buy a 15 amp breaker to replace the 20 amp(my panel is full - small panel 100 amp panel with a 200 amp service)? Or :

2. Do I keep it as is: one run, then split for both sides of the room at the junction point, leading new wire?

Can you put two circuits on one breaker? Does the breaker treat the circuits as separate, protecting both? (ie. does one breaker protect two circuits like two breakers protecting each an individual circuit - hope you know what I mean here!)

The room will be divided in two: one half will have a tv, dvd player and satellite box, and the other half will be occupied by a desk for my wife to do her scrapbooking on (so maybe a table lamp there).

Hope you can help and know what I mean!

To start with you have the wrong breaker in there for 14g wire. It should be 15A. Your asking for trouble if you leave it.
Secondly, it's only one circuit, not two.
The fact that it's split in a box is irrelivent. If you had 10 outlets all running in a straight line, the draw at the breaker is the same as if they were all fed individually from a junction box.
Let me put it this way...The wire between the breaker and the first box, weather that is a juction box or a fixture, will carry all the load of that circuit. Provided the number of fixtures on that line doen't exceed the code, the rout the wires take doesn't matter.
I don't know if code specifies a right way or wrong way of doing that but I do know you can't put 2 wires on one breaker (I think that's what you ment).
HTH

[Jason in Sudbury]

J.P. Thanks for the input.

I know that the one lead, even if split, is still one circuit protected by one breaker.

I guess the big question is, if I change the breaker to a 15 amp (I am pretty sure I have one kicking around and want to put the proper breaker in...this is one thing I will do for sure!) and run two circuits to my panel and hook them up each to the same breaker (cause I don't have the room to add another breaker), will this be equivalent to running two circuits to two breakers?

Or, for the amount of outlets in the room (let's say 8 alltogether, oh and the lights for this room are on a separate breaker), do I just run the one 14/2 back to the panel and keep the whole room on the one circuit?

TIA

[J.P. Rap]

J.P. Thanks for the input.

I know that the one lead, even if split, is still one circuit protected by one breaker.

I guess the big question is, if I change the breaker to a 15 amp (I am pretty sure I have one kicking around and want to put the proper breaker in...this is one thing I will do for sure!) and run two circuits to my panel and hook them up each to the same breaker (cause I don't have the room to add another breaker), will this be equivalent to running two circuits to two breakers?

Or, for the amount of outlets in the room (let's say 8 alltogether, oh and the lights for this room are on a separate breaker), do I just run the one 14/2 back to the panel and keep the whole room on the one circuit?

TIA

It is against code to run two wires (circuits) to one breaker. Don't do it.
To the best of my knowlege, ontario code says you can have ten fixtures on one circuit (please check to confirm that #). The fixtures can be lights, outlets, or any combination of the two.
HTH

[Rick Smith]

Jason:

Is there some reason you want to change the 14 ge wire that is already there? If it hasn't been damaged and you can confirm it is installed correctly why not just use it and replace the breaker that is protecting the circuit with a 15 amp. The fact that it splits at a junction box makes no difference to the circuit but as you are probably aware the junction box has to be accessible. If you are wanting to have one side of the room on a separate circuit you will have to see if there is access to another circuit, maybe in an adjacent room, which has capacity to add a couple more outlets. Be sure about this though, many electricians (and most homeowners) push circuits to their full capacity and even beyond.

Rick in Cobourg

[Jason in Sudbury]

Thanks for the advice on running 2 circuits to one breaker. Will not do it. I think I will stick to the one circuit for this room and just change the wires to the junction box. There was one place in the corner where they used a 3" nail that was bent up to hold the wire in place. I wanted to remove that hazard, therefore if I was going to change some wire, may as well do the whole room. I think I will stop at the junction point and if ever I have to change the wire, the rest of the run will be above the drop ceiling.

My thinking on changing the wire was that this wire dates mid-70's (and the nail issue stated above). Not sure what you call it, but it's the stuff that looks like dried up snake skin and has the paper twirled around the wires (I am sure you guys know what I am talking about!).
There seems to be nothing wrong with the wires, just thought that since the walls are open, change the wires. I guess I just don't know what is a good wire and what is a bad wire!
Is there any way to determine if my wires are "bad"? The exterior sheathing on them seems dry. Is this normal or a concern?

I have checked the ESA web site and it looks like the number of outlets/fixtures on a 15a circuit is 12.

Thanks again!

[Rick Smith]

OK, mid 70's there is a chance the wiring is aluminum but that is easily determined by inspection and I would certainly agree with replacing that. If it is copper, the old Romex should still be OK, lots of houses have it, and it always looked dry even when new. The bottom line is that if you feel better modernizing it then go for it, I would probably do the same. Also, if there does happen to be any Al wiring and you ever have to connect it to copper be sure to use one of the pastes that prevents oxidation of the aluminum at the joint. Aluminum oxidizes producing a high resistance coating which causes heat build up, expansion, then contraction and eventual loosening of the connection. Works fine if properly installed with correct fittings and regular inspection of screw terminals for tightness.

That said, I am not an electrician but have been doing my own wiring, with inspections, for 35 years. After knocking soundly on my (pine) desk I will say that I have had no problems yet, but I also know when I am exceeding my comfort level and I will call in the cavalry when required. :)

Rick in Cobourg

[Gary in Waterdown]

If the lights are on a different circuit by themselves, then you could add some of the new outlets to that circuit to help reduce the draw on the circuit you're concerned about. If you plan on using any lamps, keep them separate from the room lights so you're not left in the dark if one breaker trips.

[Jason in Sudbury]

Well, I had a close inspection of the wiring last night and it is copper and it seems like it's in good shape (as far as what I can tell). I had to run some more wire because this room (14X20) only had 3 outlets!

One more question:
I am installing a few recessed lights in the area where the tv will be going (actually not directly above the tv, but in the two spaces next to it that I have framed to accomodate small built in shelving units).

I am going to use one of the outlets as a junction point to run to a wire to the switch, then from the switch to the lights. This outlets are in series, ie. one wire runs to it from the first outlet, then the wire runs to the next outlet. I know how to wire those...both hots on one side (brass) and both commons on the other side (silver) and the ground to the box and to the outlet (If both grounds are attached to the box, do both also have to be attached to the green screw, or does only one ground wire have to be?)

Question: What's the best way to get the power to the switch? Do I take my hot wire (the one that is carrying the power from the previous outlet) and with the use of a marret attach the hot that leads to the switch and also put in a pig-tail that will power the outlet?

Or can I put the hot coming in and the wire that leads to the switch on the same (top) screw on the outlet and use the other (bottom) brass screw to attach the wire that runs to the next outlet?

I hope you can understand what I am trying to say here! Sorry if it sounds confusing!

[Rick Smith]

Jason: Only one ground gets connected to the outlet, just leave it a bit longer and loop it around one ground screw on the box then to the outlet. Attach the other ground to the other ground screw on the box and either cut off the excess or, if a third cable is in the box, use the long end to attach the third ground wire into the network by twisting (and a Marrette if you want).
The same approach can be used to provide connection points to take off a supply for your lights. Leave the black and white incoming wires a bit longer (maybe 3" extra) then 3" back from the ends remove a strip of insulation about 1/2" long and loop them around the appropriate screws on the outlet and tighten down. Then you have the 3" extra to give you the connection points you need. Be careful not to nick the copper as you strip any insulation because if it is bad enough the copper conductor can be weakened and break off when flexed.
You can do the pigtail thing too.

Rick in Cobourg

[Jason in Sudbury]

Rick,
Thanks for the advice!
I was thinking only one ground to the screw was needed (as long as all grounds coming in were grounded to the box), but I have always attached both grounds to the box and to the green screw.

I will try the option you have mentionned (taking a strip off the wire 3" back).

Thanks again!

[billh]

I don't think it is proper to connect the ground from one cable to a screw in the box and just connect the ground from another cable to the other screw in the box. The grounds can both be connected to the screws but they must be twisted and capped or crimped which usually means a pigtail to the receptacle unless it is the last thing on the circuit.

I usually bond the feed cable ground coming into the box and make any other ground ties via the connector; it is a bit of an aid later on to be able to tell what is upstream and downstream.

billh

[J.P. Rap]

Jason, you got good advice but just to be sure...do not connect two wires to one screw. If you have more wires than screws, you need to marret them together with a tail to the screw or do the loop thing Rick explained.
Most box stores sell a book call "electrical code simplified". It's a very good book and easy to understand. I suggest you pick one up.
FWIW