Ontario Electrical Code Question about 220v

[Kevin in Keswick]

Hey Guys,

As some of you may know, I'm in the midst of waiting for my new 8 inch jointer to arrive. In the meantime, I need to install a 220 line in my basement to accommodate it. What I'm going to install is, a double pole 20 amp breaker. I spoke to an electrician, and he told me that for what I'm doing I will need 12/2 romex, which is yellow (used to be red but the code changed recently apparently), and that's where my question begins.

I pulled the cover off my breaker panel and basically had a looksee at another 20 amp double pole 220v breaker that is coming from my air conditioner outside. This was installed 2 years ago, and hence, the 12/2 romex wire has red sheathing and there is a black, red and bare ground wire inside it. I have purchased the new yellow 12/2 wire, and I was expecting to see the same black, red and bare ground wire inside, but instead it is a black, white and a bare ground, just like 14/2. Is there any problem with this? Like I said, I had an electrician tell me I needed the yellow 12/2 romex that I bought, it's just that I expected to see a black, red and bare ground wire inside the sheathing. Does this seem ok to you guys, or is there a different kind of wire that I should have bought? The electrician also told me that in order to install a 20 amp 220v breaker, I had to wire it up with 12 guage wire to the receptacles, apparently that is code.

I guess in a nutshell, if I install the two pole 20 amp breaker and run yellow 12/2 wire to that breaker with one pole being wired with the white wire, and the other with the black, and the ground wire going to the ground bar in the panel, is this ok? The white wire is what is throwing me off, that's all. Sorry if I am being repetitive. I'm am just trying to explain in the clearest way.

Anybody who can provide me with any info, that would be great.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Ron Wessels]

Have a look through this (http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15497) thread which addresses the issue of carrying a line voltage on a white wire.

In summary, you can't do it, but you can colour the wire with permanent marker and be acceptable. Basically, you need a permanent indication to anyone working on that circuit in the future that that wire contains a line voltage.

[Mike in London]

Hey Guys,

As some of you may know, I'm in the midst of waiting for my new 8 inch jointer to arrive. In the meantime, I need to install a 220 line in my basement to accommodate it. What I'm going to install is, a double pole 20 amp breaker. I spoke to an electrician, and he told me that for what I'm doing I will need 12/2 romex, which is yellow (used to be red but the code changed recently apparently), and that's where my question begins.

I pulled the cover off my breaker panel and basically had a looksee at another 20 amp double pole 220v breaker that is coming from my air conditioner outside. This was installed 2 years ago, and hence, the 12/2 romex wire has red sheathing and there is a black, red and bare ground wire inside it. I have purchased the new yellow 12/2 wire, and I was expecting to see the same black, red and bare ground wire inside, but instead it is a black, white and a bare ground, just like 14/2. Is there any problem with this? Like I said, I had an electrician tell me I needed the yellow 12/2 romex that I bought, it's just that I expected to see a black, red and bare ground wire inside the sheathing. Does this seem ok to you guys, or is there a different kind of wire that I should have bought? The electrician also told me that in order to install a 20 amp 220v breaker, I had to wire it up with 12 guage wire to the receptacles, apparently that is code.

I guess in a nutshell, if I install the two pole 20 amp breaker and run yellow 12/2 wire to that breaker with one pole being wired with the white wire, and the other with the black, and the ground wire going to the ground bar in the panel, is this ok? The white wire is what is throwing me off, that's all. Sorry if I am being repetitive. I'm am just trying to explain in the clearest way.

Anybody who can provide me with any info, that would be great.

Thanks,
Kevin

Hi Kevin

I hate to break it to you, but the electrician you spoke to is wrong. For a 240V 20A circuit you require red sheathed NMD 90 #12/2 Non Metallic Sheathed cable. If you were to get it inspected it likely wouldn't pass, live conductors need to be permently identified colours other than white. The yellow sheathed #12/2 is for 20A 120V circuits. You maybe able get away with using a red marker to permently colour the exposed white insulation.

But my advice to you is to do it right and use the red sheathed #12/2.

Your Electrician needs to reeducate himself.

Mike

[Brent in Montreal]

Hi Mike,

Is there any physical difference, besides wire color, between the two (red sheathed vs. yellow). I wired a 220 20amp breaker with yellow because that's what I had lying around. Besides the fact that it's not to code, is the wire capable of the job?

[GolfSteve in Calgary]

I installed a new 20 amp 240V circuit two weeks ago.

The guy at Home Depot (I know, but he did seem knowledgeable) sold me the yellow wire when I described what I was doing. The wire size was correct, but I don't know if he was right about the sheath colour. The wire is rated for 300V, but there was no indication on the box that it should only be used for 120V.

I did mark the white wire, on both ends, to indicate that it was a live wire.

[J.P. Rap]

Hi Mike,

Is there any physical difference, besides wire color, between the two (red sheathed vs. yellow). I wired a 220 20amp breaker with yellow because that's what I had lying around. Besides the fact that it's not to code, is the wire capable of the job?

The wire is the same. It's colour coded to indicate power in both lines.
The idea is you can tell at a glance what you're dealing with. If you see yellow NMD you know there is a hot and a neutral. If you see red , there are two hot lines no neutral. If you can't see the sheathing and you open a box, a red and black wire will indicate they both are hot. A black and a white wire will indicate one is hot and one is neutral. Colouring the white wire with red marker indicates it's a live wire. I have seen that done many times but the code is constantly changing. What was acceptable yesterday may not be acceptable today.
Like Mike said, as of now the code says it must be a red sheathed wire.

[Mike in London]

Hi Mike,

Is there any physical difference, besides wire color, between the two (red sheathed vs. yellow). I wired a 220 20amp breaker with yellow because that's what I had lying around. Besides the fact that it's not to code, is the wire capable of the job?

Hi Brent

Some Inspectors will still accept the yellow #12/2 for a 240V as long as the white conductor is permanently coloured red or black. But I figure there's cable manufactured to identify a 240V circuit, the red sheathed cable with black and red insulated conductors, why not do it right. Because if you go to all that work and the inspector says change it, you don't have a choice.

Too answer your question, it's the same wire, it's just a different colour.

Mike

[Mike in London]

Hi Kevin

I'm going to ask you a few basic questions pertaining to what you're doing, don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't know the answers, then I suggest you get hold of a copy of the Simiplied Code or hire a Licensed Electrical Contractor.

How much free conductor is required in a device box?
How close to the device box does the cable need to be strapped?
At what intervals does the cable need to be strapped?
How many cables are permitted under one strap?
Is it acceptable to strap to the underside of a floor joist?
If drilling holes, how much clearance is required from the edge of a stud to the cable?
If you cross a joist space with a heating duct, what clearance must be allowed to the duct, or does the cable need to be protected?
I assume your shop is in an unfinished basement, if your cable is run down a concrete wall, what is the wiring method?

Most important take out a permit.

Mike

[Lost in the Woods]

Hi Kevin

I'm going to ask you a few basic questions pertaining to what you're doing, don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't know the answers, then I suggest you get hold of a copy of the Simiplied Code or hire a Licensed Electrical Contractor.

How much free conductor is required in a device box?
How close to the device box does the cable need to be strapped?
At what intervals does the cable need to be strapped?
Is it acceptable to strap to the underside of a floor joist?
If drilling holes, how much clearance is required from the edge of a stud to the cable?
If you cross a joist space with a heating duct, what clearance must be allowed to the duct, or does the cable need to be protected?
I assume your shop is in an unfinished basement, if your cable is run down a concrete wall, what is the wiring method?

Most important take out a permit.

Mike

I see where you're going with this Mike and with the exception to the last question, which I've yet had to undertake, I myself did not know these until I got the simplified code book. All the rules pertaining to these aspects are there for a reason which often as explained in the book, we wouldn't necessarily consider on our own.

Like Mike says, get the simplified code book and a permit. The book is like 10 or 15 dollars at the orange borg or similar places.

I think you also pointed out a while back Mike that if the house burns down and the insurance company deems it was related to work you did without a permit, you'll have your claim denied or have an uphill battle getting it approved.

Other Kevin.

[Dave in T.O.]

All you need to do is wrap the white wire with black or red electrical tape, that way no one will asume the white wire is neutral.

Dave

[Kevin in Keswick]

Thanks for the help guys.

Kevin

[Mike in London]

All you need to do is wrap the white wire with black or red electrical tape, that way no one will asume the white wire is neutral.

Dave

Hi Dave

Tape is nolonger accepted, it has to be permanently marked.

Mike

[Rick Smith]

Dave, apparently that's not good enough any more, needs to be a permanent marker or something that won't fall/wear off.

Rick in Cobourg

[Lost in the Woods]

Dave, apparently that's not good enough any more, needs to be a permanent marker or something that won't fall/wear off.

Rick in Cobourg

I've seen that where the electrical tape has dried out and has just fallen off.

To permanently mark then is using the appropriate colour Sharpie OK?

Kev

[billh]

I am in full agreement with using a permanent marker to colour a white not used as a neutral a different colour. Now we have basically the same #12 wire in a yellow jacket to be used on 120V circuits and #12 wire in a red jacket for 240V circuits. The red one having a red wire so no need to mark it with a pen. Some inspectors might be happy with either, some not. Sounds like another case of somebody with not enough to do.

billh

[Mike in London]

Sounds like another case of somebody with not enough to do.

billh


Hi Bill

It's actually totally the oposite, it makes the inspector's job easier. If he sees a yellow cable, he knows it's for the 20A ground fault receptacles on either side of the kitchen sink. If he sees a red cable he knows it's for 240V circuit, either a heating load, A/C or in this case a 240V motor. If he sees an orange cable it's for a 30A 120V load. In SW Ontario there are only 6 inspectors, that sometimes have as many as 60 calls in one day.

There's actually a Bulliten on the colour coding of cables. Bullitens are recomendations only but often become code in the next issue. Which is the reason some still accept the yellow cable for 240V application.

Call it annal, yes, but I figure if there's cables manufactured for a purpose, why not use them, besides it looks kinda cool, when all these different coloured cables are lined up perfectly beside the panel.

Mike

[David in Mississauga]

I don't want to hijack this thread, however, I'm looking at buying an 8" Jointer this weekend (I found a deal too good to pass up - Tool Gloat will come later...).

It's wired for 220V, however I don't have a 220 line in my garage. The dryer hookup is on the other side of the wall between the garage and the laundry room. Is there any way that one could split off that line to make another outlet in the garage? I would obviously only run one or the other at a time, but I don't know if it's legal or safe to do so. Excuse the ignorance.

If it's too unsafe to have two outlets for a 220V line because there's a possibility that both outlets could be used at once, is there anything that would trip the switch and shut off the breaker if anything did happen?

Any ideas/options? I don't have enough room on the main panel to have a double pole (20amp) breaker hooked up, so would I have to upgrade the panel to support the jointer?

Thank you,

[Mike in London]

I don't want to hijack this thread, however, I'm looking at buying an 8" Jointer this weekend (I found a deal too good to pass up - Tool Gloat will come later...).

It's wired for 220V, however I don't have a 220 line in my garage. The dryer hookup is on the other side of the wall between the garage and the laundry room. Is there any way that one could split off that line to make another outlet in the garage? I would obviously only run one or the other at a time, but I don't know if it's legal or safe to do so. Excuse the ignorance.

If it's too unsafe to have two outlets for a 220V line because there's a possibility that both outlets could be used at once, is there anything that would trip the switch and shut off the breaker if anything did happen?

Any ideas/options? I don't have enough room on the main panel to have a double pole (20amp) breaker hooked up, so would I have to upgrade the panel to support the jointer?

Thank you,

Hi David

In short you could do it but it's not legal, the dryer has to be on by itself.

Whose the manufacture of your panel? You maybe able to free up some space by installing mini breakers. Do you have digital camera, take a pic of your panel, and I'll tell you whether or not you can do it.

Mike

[J.P. Rap]

I don't want to hijack this thread, however, I'm looking at buying an 8" Jointer this weekend (I found a deal too good to pass up - Tool Gloat will come later...).
...
Thank you,
Have a look here (http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4213&highlight=dryer+220+breaker)Dave. This same discussion came up a while ago.
It pretty much tells you what Mike just told you but there is a little more info there.
HTH

[David in Mississauga]

It looks like it's made by Commander out in Scarborough.

http://www.freewebs.com/hockeyliles/IM002577.JPG
http://www.freewebs.com/hockeyliles/IM002578.JPG

Thanks J.P. and Mike! I really appreciate this!

[David in Mississauga]

Thanks again J.P. I just reread the link you sent me!
I found this to be interesting! It it an acceptable (legal/do-able) idea?

If it is a hobby shop and you do not need a lot of power, get a small sub panel and mount it to a piece of plywood. Wire some receptacles to this panel and put the boxes on the same piece of plywood. Install a drier recept in a box on the plywood and feed the whole thing with a drier cord. Then plug the sub poanel into the dier outlet, plug the drier into the new dier recept, and you'r good to go. You still can't use both at the same time, but this way you can safely turn your 30A drier cct into a whateveer combination of 120 and 220 recept you need for your tools. You are still limited to thirty amps total, but this way you could be up and running pretty quick. Then, when you get the cable pulled in (not an urgent priority any more), take the temp panel and mount it in your shop permanently.
-Michael in Port Alberni

[Mike in London]

It looks like it's made by Commander out in Scarborough.

http://www.freewebs.com/hockeyliles/IM002577.JPG
http://www.freewebs.com/hockeyliles/IM002578.JPG

Thanks J.P. and Mike! I really appreciate this!

Hi David

You have really good panel there, because Commander used bolt on breakers as opposed to the stab lock. But unfortunity Commander was bought out by Cutler-Hammer about 10 years ago, so the panels are no longer made. You can still get breakers from electrical wholesalers though. Unfortunity the freeing up space is out, the Commander panels never had mini breaker potential.

Here's your options:

Buy a 2-pole 20A breaker, install it on the left side to run your jointer, but you'll only have 1 spare circuit left. Costs about $30 for the breaker.

Buy a 60A breaker, install on the left and install a new sub-panel to give room to grow. You'll need to hire a Licensed Electrical Contractor and will cost around $600.

Upgrade your service with a minimum of 125A 32/64 circuit panel from Siemens and never worry again about not enough having power. Hire a Contractor, could cost as much as $1500.

Mike

[David in Mississauga]

Hmm. I may just got with a quick fix right now and do the 20A option.

It's okay to just have one spare circuit? For some reason, I remember hearing that you needed at least two?!

Why couldn't I start this hobby a few years later? haha. I'm just finishing high school now, and I'm planning on becoming an electrician after taking a year off!

[Mike in London]

Thanks again J.P. I just reread the link you sent me!
I found this to be interesting! It it an acceptable (legal/do-able) idea?

If it is a hobby shop and you do not need a lot of power, get a small sub panel and mount it to a piece of plywood. Wire some receptacles to this panel and put the boxes on the same piece of plywood. Install a drier recept in a box on the plywood and feed the whole thing with a drier cord. Then plug the sub poanel into the dier outlet, plug the drier into the new dier recept, and you'r good to go. You still can't use both at the same time, but this way you can safely turn your 30A drier cct into a whateveer combination of 120 and 220 recept you need for your tools. You are still limited to thirty amps total, but this way you could be up and running pretty quick. Then, when you get the cable pulled in (not an urgent priority any more), take the temp panel and mount it in your shop permanently.
-Michael in Port Alberni

David

Before I went the route as Michael suggested I would clear it with ESA first. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's not something I would do so I'd want to get it cleared first.

Here's ESA's website call the 1-887 number.

http://www.esainspection.net/

Mike

[Mike in London]

Hmm. I may just got with a quick fix right now and do the 20A option.

It's okay to just have one spare circuit? For some reason, I remember hearing that you needed at least two?!

Why couldn't I start this hobby a few years later? haha. I'm just finishing high school now, and I'm planning on becoming an electrician after taking a year off!

You're right about the minimum of 2 free circuits, but that's for final inspection on a new installation, in your case you're OK.

As far as becoming an electrician and taking a year off, go to the IBEW local in Toronto now, and get your name on the apprenticeship list, it could take a year before you're called to write the apprenticeship exam.

[J.P. Rap]

Dave, Your best bet is to follow Mikes advice. He's eons ahead of me at this stuff. Nuthin wrong with going for the 20 amp quick fix for now (just do it properly)and converting at a more appropriate time in the future... like when you have your licence.:mrgreen: