Cutting Rabbets with dado blades (safety)

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

It seems to me I asked this before here on this forum but I searched the archives I can’t find the answer so if you don’t mind I’ll ask again.

I’ll be cutting an 11/16 wide rabbet taking small bites at a time all around the edge of this 5 x 7 board. I don’t have a problem doing the long side without using the miter gauge, but the narrow sides might be hard to keep against the fence if I don’t use it. I know you wouldn’t dare do this if crosscutting or ripping, but here I won’t be trapping any thing between the blade and the fence. Should be OK right?

Thanks

Brian
5007

[Mack C. in Brooklin ON]

Hi Brian; I would attach a stop block on the rip fence somewhere behind the dado blade (say about 4 - 6") that would prevent you from going past your 11/16" mark. Nibble little bits on the dado blade at a time until the stop block does it's job, i.e. stops you from going beyond the 11/16" mark. You don't need to use the the rip fence and you will be pastthe stop block when you enter the dado blade.

Clear? No, I'll send a pic!

[Mack C. in Brooklin ON]

Hi Brian; here's a couple of fast pics that might clear up my words.
5008Wood up to the stop block so the dado can't be cut beyond 11/16".
5009
Wood is past the stop block on the rip fence and can be nibbled away, until you reach the stop block.

[Doug Harrison]

Brian; Never had a problem doing this the way you have it set up. (without the stop block ) I would, however, screw a scrap board to the mitre guage to prevent tearout, and make certain the subject board cannot get caught in the exposed blade relief that I see on your fence protector. (I know someone who lost a finger when a piece of ply he was cutting "fell" into this opening and grabbed!) Doug

[Wally in Calgary]

It seems to me I asked this before here on this forum but I searched the archives I can’t find the answer so if you don’t mind I’ll ask again.

I’ll be cutting an 11/16 wide rabbet taking small bites at a time all around the edge of this 5 x 7 board. I don’t have a problem doing the long side without using the miter gauge, but the narrow sides might be hard to keep against the fence if I don’t use it. I know you wouldn’t dare do this if crosscutting or ripping, but here I won’t be trapping any thing between the blade and the fence. Should be OK right?

Thanks

Brian
There will be no problem doing it that way Brian. That is the way I would do it and remember to cut your cross grain sides first so you don't blow out the ends. You could also use a wooden backer on your MG to prevent any splintering. Once you set your fence and do a test to the right width then you can never cut too wide. You could do it in 2 passes and check the depth as you go with a test piece.

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Thanks Mack … I had contemplated your method before hand but was looking for a single fence setting for all cuts. This cut has to be bang on all sides.

Doug … Thanks for pointing that out, there will be plenty of uncut wood riding above the relief in the fence.

Wally … Thanks once again

Brian

[Bill Simpson]

The "Mack" method is the industry standard and I believe endorsed by his Lordship, NORM.... I believe your way is endorsed by Tim the Toolman... But .... I have done it the way you suggest. but there seems to always be a binding even if the miter is square and all thing are set correctly. There is a considerable amount of friction between the end of the piece and the fence so there is some drag and then that creates some forcing then jerking and more friction and then more forcing and jerking etc.... So one must talk it easy and be prepared for the problems that will ensue.

The only reason I would do the method you discribe is that I'm too lazy to make additional setting (one for the rip-cut and one for the cross-cut).

You could, however, use a sacrifice fence for the rip cut and then slide the sacrifice fence back to act as the stop block and that would eliminate a setting change and both the rip-cut and the cross-cut would be the exact same.

[Pete in Milton]

Mac's set up is the one to use, as Bill states the other configuration leads to binding and possible kickback as well as burning (as it binds). Once the stop block is cleared if the workpiece is held securely your results should be bang on!!!

[Jim in Burlington]

I don't see you having any problems. If it really makes you nervous put a cleat on your fence board the thickness of the board your rabbeting.

[Brent in Montreal]

Hi Brian,

That's the way I've always done it. As long as you keep it tight to the gauge it won't bind or get hung up. While there's nothing wrong with Mack's way I find it extra work for no extra return. It also holds the possibility of your piece sliding, even slightly, on the gauge if you don't have sandpaper or some other abrasive on it.

[Bill Simpson]

Brian, you've got two opinions... and support for either or the other.... choose one... but choose well and be prepared for some difficulty either way. One way has difficulty controling the timber and the other way has difficulty in making additional settings. Let us know how you decide and the outcome.

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Brian, you've got two opinions... and support for either or the other.... choose one... but choose well and be prepared for some difficulty either way. One way has difficulty controling the timber and the other way has difficulty in making additional settings. Let us know how you decide and the outcome.
Hi Bill … I cut the rabbets with the setup as shown in the first post, it went fine with no chattering or binding and only taking a little bit at a time.

Still I wish I would have had a unanimous answer to the question … I would have felt better.

Brian

[Mack C. in Brooklin ON]

Hi Bill … I cut the rabbets with the setup as shown in the first post, it went fine with no chattering or binding and only taking a little bit at a time.

[quote]Still I wish I would have had a unanimous answer to the question … I would have felt better. Hi Brian; you've been around here long enough to know that's never going to happen!

All in all I'm glad to see everything went well for you even though you didn't use the approved "industry standard" method.:D

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Hi Brian; you've been around here long enough to know that's never going to happen!


True enough Mack!

[Wally in Calgary]

All in all I'm glad to see everything went well for you even though you didn't use the approved "industry standard" method.:D
And just who is this that say's that your way is the industry standard way???????????????

[Ken in Regina]

It's good to see you've been allowed back down the basement. How did you get down there? Bounce down on your bum? More importantly, how did you persuade the boss to let you down there? When we saw you last week, she seemed pretty determined that you weren't going down any time soon. ... Or did she get tired of your whining and lock you down there for the duration? :p

I like your setup. That's the way I do it and I've never had a problem. I have waxed the face of my sacrificial fence so the work piece slides smoothly on it, and I have sandpaper on my mitre fence so the work piece can't slide smoothly on it.

The only difference from your approach is that I would normally take it off in one pass. As Wally said, do the cross-grain cut first and it doesn't matter if you get some tearout because it's gone when you do the long-grain edges. The only reason for a backer board to stop tearout is if you are doing just the cross-grain cuts.

...ken...

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Hay Ken … The Doc said the bone is fine but the surrounding tendons and soft tissue are not doing well but to try and put the crutches away and put weight on the leg but don’t over do it. As soon as the boss heard that I had the OK to depart down stairs, funny I don’t remember it taking that long to get down there. Spent the first day and only for a few hours getting reacquainted with the shop and wondering where the heck I left off on my project on June 4. I had purchased some new tools before the injury and now had to find a place for them so as I was still not really comfortable on two feet and still a little wobbly now would be a good time to figure out where the new tools could find a new home rather than dive into the power tools just yet … spending time cleaning and rearranging might be a good reintroduction to the shop.

Turned on the tools the tools for the first time in a long time the day before yesterday and some today and was told by the Doc I over did it as the leg is swollen and sore … have been reassigned to watching Dr. Phil and Oprah… Oh Joy… Norm should be on soon!!!!

[Ken in Regina]

Turned on the tools the tools for the first time in a long time the day before yesterday and some today and was told by the Doc I over did it as the leg is swollen and sore … have been reassigned to watching Dr. Phil and Oprah… Oh Joy… Norm should be on soon!!!!
Geez, it's a wonder she ever leaves you alone in the house! :shock:

It's good to hear that you can get back in the shop but it sounds like you need to tie a timer around your neck. :rolleyes:

...ken...

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Geez, it's a wonder she ever leaves you alone in the house! :shock:
...ken...

I know … I keep thinking about that, what if I was alone when I broke it. Good thing she was there. Sheeesh could have been a long night.

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

And just who is this that say's that your way is the industry standard way???????????????
Hmm … Valid point and good question … I know I’d like to hear more.

[Mack C. in Brooklin ON]

[quote]And just who is this that say's that your way is the industry standard way??????????????? Hi Wally & Brian; Well if you read all the posts in their entirety, especially about 6 back by Bill Simpson, you would have had your answer. And if Bill says it, it must be true, and that's good enough for me!:lol:

[Ken in Regina]

Hmm … Valid point and good question … I know I’d like to hear more.
There have been two techniques discussed in this thread because there are two legitimate ways of doing it.

As a general rule of thumb, each is used for a different purpose.

The stop-block technique is normally used for cutting tenons/tongues or rebates (rabbets) on the ends of boards. This job is normally done on boards that are relatively narrow so the narrow end of the board is towards the fence. The fence provides poor support so you would normally feed with the mitre guage. I have a longer fence attached to my mitre gauge so that the board gets good support on the long edge and isn't likely to twist when doing this operation. Rather than using a sacrificial fence it's generally easier to register against a stop block so that there is no end-grain friction against a fence as the cut is made and no chance of the narrow piece catching on the back edge of the relief around the blade.

The sacrificial fence technique is normally used for cutting rebates or tongues on the long edges of boards. The long edge is against the fence so the fence provides good support for the board. So you can use your hands or pushsticks/blocks to feed the piece. Depending upon your prefered working technique you might use a featherboard to make sure the board stays nice and snug against the sacrificial fence. Since the long-grain edge is against the fence there is less friction and the length of the piece will usually ensure that there's no chance of hooking the back edge of the blade relief.

In your case the board is nearly square. As has already been pointed out, either technique could be used for your operation. The cross-grain width of the board was wide enough that it registered well against the fence. It might even have been wide enough to use some form of freehand feed technique, like pushsticks/Gripppper/whatever. But using the mitre gauge ensured that you would get no twist. The long-grain edge was long enough that it also registered well against the fence but was still short enough that using the mitre gauge to avoid twisting was still a good idea.

The approximate "squareness" of your board and the fact that you were not doing a whole bunch of them means that there is no compelling reason to use one technique over the other, so your combo approach was as good as anything. Given the size and shape of the board - and your usual paranoia ....errrr... caution when working with rapidly spinning sharp objects - you intuitively combined the best of both techniques.

I hope that helps.

...ken...

[Bill Simpson]

Been gone a couple of days, and I see that some good deal of discussion has occured. Good! Ken is a wise old feller and he has drawn the conclusioon in a nutshell... With only a few cuts to make and being aware of the possibilities and being careful of possible dangers either selection would be acceptable in certain conditions. You did well and all came out well but had you been directing some one (a novice) on the proper method, The stopblock would have been the correct choice. As for the question of "Industry Standard" I believe the safe, tried and true method (even if it take additional settings and setups) IS "The Industry Standard" A term "Better Safe than Sorry" comes to mind.

[Mack C. in Brooklin ON]

Hey Bill and Ken; you guys have a way more knowledge between the two of you than any two people should be allowed to have. I for one thank you for imparting any and all of those pieces of information any time you post to this forum. I salute you Sirs!:)

[Wally in Calgary]

Hey Bill and Ken; you guys have a way more knowledge between the two of you than any two people should be allowed to have. I for one thank you for imparting any and all of those pieces of information any time you post to this forum. I salute you Sirs!:)
Well --- Yes Bill's been around for many a year and does definitely know what he's talking about .. through experience. I've always respected someones opinion when he has the yrs. experience to back it up. I only have 35 yrs. screwing around with wood as a living but Hickory has a lot more. But as Hickory says there is more than one way to do a job safely and the method proposed by Brian was quite safe and could not be screwed up .. even for a novice .. and I'm not calling Brian a novice. Just because someone Say's it's an industry standard does not make it so!!!!!

[Bri in Mtl]

So I guess no one has been as dumb as me and used a much used sacrificial fence and sorta...kinda not realize that the piece you're cutting has run out of fence surface to rest against?
Took me awhile to figure out why my tenon shoulders wern't all the same...sigh

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

I don’t want to argue the point of whether or not the cut is an industry standard and yes Bill has the seniority and knowledge combined with the ability to pass what he knows on to others and I also respect his views. Several others also fit into this group … Wally fits into this group as I’ve learned plenty from him over the years.

OK enough of that … group hug is over.

Here is a photo from Fine Woodworking showing for lack of better words the Non Industry Standard where I think the use of a stock block should have been used.
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[Brian in Dawson Creek]

So I guess no one has been as dumb as me and used a much used sacrificial fence and sorta...kinda not realize that the piece you're cutting has run out of fence surface to rest against?
Took me awhile to figure out why my tenon shoulders wern't all the same...sigh

Nope … but I would imagine a few choice words came into play.

I have heard of some folks running the work piece smack into the clamp holding the sacrificial fence to the fence. Wasn’t me though:)

[Ken in Regina]

Here is a photo from Fine Woodworking showing for lack of better words the Non Industry Standard where I think the use of a stock block should have been used.

I've used that technique lots. It's different from the other two discussed in one significant way. You need to take off way more than the width of even your full dado stack so you are going to nibble the waste off, starting at the end and working in until the piece touches the fence. You can't do it with a stop block.

It's safe and reliable. When you are nibbling from the end until the piece contacts the fence there's no offcut to worry about getting jammed. There's no sacrificial fence involved so no worries about catching the piece on the rear edge of the blade relief cutout. The piece is typically fairly narrow so if you keep your fence slippery there's no drag to worry about. And it only touches the fence on the last pass. (You do wax your fence every time you wax the top of the saw, don't you?)

...ken...

[Brian in Dawson Creek]

Thanks for point that out Ken … I didn’t realize the difference.

Umm … No, I’ve never given a thought to waxing the fence until now.

Brian

[Ken in Regina]

Umm … No, I’ve never given a thought to waxing the fence until now.

You should wax the face of the fence on your saws and your jointer every time you wax the tables. (Well, wax or Top Coat or whatever.) Doesn't do as much good to wax the tables if the fences are getting sticky.

...ken...