Safety - "Won't somebody think of the children?"

[Mike in Orangeville]

I was just browsing YouTube for turning videos. Yeah, I know, there is a turning forum and this isn't it, but this post is actually about safety.
I saw a listing for a video described as "Pen Turning 101". I thought it might be fun to watch. Turns out some guy had his 8-ish year old daughter turning a pen and he was filming it. He did some ugly stuff with a table saw, and I was getting uncomfortable when his daughter was trying (not entirely successfully) to use the 12" disk sander, but when I saw that the turning tool that he had her using was just an old file ground on the end, and a BARE TANG !!!! I just about lost it. As a general statement - if someone wants to have a cavalier attitude about safety, they can go ahead and risk their own life as they choose, but if that little girl hit a bad patch and that 'chisel' caught she could take the pointy tang right in the chest, the neck, or right under the chin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oh_TlUyYZ8

[wilson]

Thanks for the website but i myself cannot watch it .:shock:

[captain sawdust]

first thing that comes to mind is IDIOT:censor::shock:
TOOL OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!

[blade57]

Definitely one of the major drawbacks of the internet!!!!

[Pete in Welland]

Mike, there are a lot of similar ones on Youtube. I don't get it at all. The one I saw had a 7 year old boy turning a bowl on a lathe on a makeshift stand and in the end the bowl exploded off the lathe. The idiot who was doing the camera work was encouraging the kid to use a bowl gouge in the most dangerous way I've ever seen.
I just don't even look at Youtube any more.

[J.P. Rap]

I've watched very little on youtube and lately my flash player decided to **** out so I couldn't watch it if I wanted to.
Is there an option to leave comments on a particular video? Do they include any kind of link to contact the person who posted the video?
I think some nasty letters might get his attention. Particularly if they're accessible to anyone who watches the video.
If not,perhaps some letters to the youtube webmaster or something to urge them to add such an option.

[Lost in the Woods]

I'll take your word for it on the video. Can't bear to watch that kind of thing.

Speaking of "Bears" and stupid adults and what they'll potentially inflict on their children; When I was 12 years old, my parents and I drove out West thru the Rockies. I recall stopping frequently by the side of the road along with many other motorists to witness the local wildlife meandering not far from the highway. On one occasion, we stopped to witness from the other side of the road, a mother and father pushing their balling and heels dug in the ground trying not to go forward little girl with a sandwhich in her hand to feed the bear inches away from her. I always remembered this. We didn't stick around to witness any further.

I recall retelling this story many times in my life, always mentioning that my impression was that the little girl had more sense in her little pinky than her parents combined. It's amazing how ignorant/stupid humans/parents can be at times.

I personnally know two 911 operators who can tell you that a heck of a lot of people die via accidental means by their own hand right in their own homes a lot more frequently than you'd think.

[callee]

Well, to play devil's advocate for a minute, what really was so bad about it?
You mention three problems:

1) "ugly stuff with a table saw"
2) "trying (not entirely successfully) to use the 12" disk sander"
3) "the turning tool that he had her using was just an old file ground on the end, and a BARE TANG !!!!"

As for #1, what was so ugly about what he did? He's off camera so we can't see if he was wearing safety glasses.The rip fence was solid and in place. He used two different push sticks to guide the piece through. The only bad thing I can see about his TS usage was that he did not have a blade guard in place, but then again making a cut that thin, the fence would have been in the way of a guard anyway. So what was so ugly about his TS use? Am I missing something?

As for #2, it's a disk sander. Other than tie back long hair and loose clothing and don't touch the moving disk with your hands, what other safety rules are there? The girl was a bit trepidatious, but I didn't see any glaring safety violations in her use of the sander. Now, mind you, for a better finish she should have been moving that wood across the disc rather than letting it sit in just one place, but that's technique not safety.

As for #3, I've never used a lathe, so you'll have to explain to me what was dangerous about his choice of tool? I mean, sure, an old file ground to an edge may not be the most stylish or gloat-worthy tool, but if it holds and edge and makes the cut, isn't that good enough? Or is it the bare tang for the handle that's bothering you? I'm guessing that you're worried about the lathe grabbing the tool and wrenching it out of her hand and shooting it across the room, cutting her hand open with that metal edge as it goes? I've never used a lathe, but is that really a risk? Doesn't the tool rest prevent that kind of thing? Or, alternatively, would the file be a safe tool if he stuck a handle on the end?

[JasonD]

Scary!!!!

BUT, with youtube, he has the option to sensor the comments and only post the ones he approves with..

Geez.. forr $60 he can get a cheap set of chisels, How dangerous is that.. plus, with his kids height, she is at a very dangerous level..

[J.P. Rap]

Well, to play devil's advocate for a minute, what really was so bad about it?
As for #3, I've never used a lathe, so you'll have to explain to me what was dangerous about his choice of tool? I mean, sure, an old file ground to an edge may not be the most stylish or gloat-worthy tool, but if it holds and edge and makes the cut, isn't that good enough? Or is it the bare tang for the handle that's bothering you? I'm guessing that you're worried about the lathe grabbing the tool and wrenching it out of her hand and shooting it across the room, cutting her hand open with that metal edge as it goes? I've never used a lathe, but is that really a risk? Doesn't the tool rest prevent that kind of thing? Or, alternatively, would the file be a safe tool if he stuck a handle on the end?
I didn't see the video so I can only answer #3.
Let me say first that I have ground down files that I use on my lathe but...
I am very experienced, I'm pushin 50 years old, my children are grown and I only have myself to be concerned about. I don't let beginners use those tools or recommend it to them regardless of their age.
Yes, it is that dangerous. Files are brittle and can snap if you get a catch. The one I use is 1/4" thick and it never gets hung over the tool rest very far. It's not likely to snap but it can happen.
If her sharpened file did snap, the pieces could hit her in the face or get lodged in her chest or kill her.
No handled tool should be used without a handle. Again, yes, it is that dangerous. A catch or grab exerts a tremendous amount of force on a tool. I have a few bent gouges to prove it. Think of it as kickback but instead of a chunk of wood getting kicked back at you (and I'm sure you know how much that can hurt) it's a pointed piece of hardened steel. The difference is instead of kicking it straight back at you, the handle end is kicked up toward your face. I don't even want to think about the damage that could cause.

[billh]

... As for #3, I've never used a lathe, so you'll have to explain to me what was dangerous about his choice of tool? I mean, sure, an old file ground to an edge may not be the most stylish or gloat-worthy tool, but if it holds and edge and makes the cut, isn't that good enough? Or is it the bare tang for the handle that's bothering you? I'm guessing that you're worried about the lathe grabbing the tool and wrenching it out of her hand and shooting it across the room, cutting her hand open with that metal edge as it goes? I've never used a lathe, but is that really a risk? Doesn't the tool rest prevent that kind of thing? Or, alternatively, would the file be a safe tool if he stuck a handle on the end?

As JP said, files are very brittle and can shatter; probably most turners won't use them. Holding a piece of metal like a file, even if it isn't brittle, that only has a bare tang scares the h*ll out of me. It appears she also is only wearing safety glasses some of the time - another real stupid move. I won't turn without a faceshield and I certainly wouldn't let a young kid do it either.

When I was learning to turn in grade 8 woodshop, I had a skew chisel catch in a spindle and the next thing I knew it was flung into the lumber file located about 10' from the front of the lathe. I don't know the dynamics that caused it to go out the front of the lathe since but I suspect it interacted with the tool rest somehow. If anybody had been standing in front of the lathe they would have been seriously injured.

I know of 2 people who have regained conciousnous on the floor in front of their lathe after being beaned by a workpiece that either exploded or came loose.

You sometimes hear, other tools will maim you, a lathe can kill you. Probably rare but it is true, spinning heavy blanks is a hazard. Yes, they do look like a pretty safe machine compared to a TS but...

[Jaime_in_Hamilton]

Well, to play devil's advocate for a minute, what really was so bad about it?
You mention three problems:

1) "ugly stuff with a table saw"
2) "trying (not entirely successfully) to use the 12" disk sander"
3) "the turning tool that he had her using was just an old file ground on the end, and a BARE TANG !!!!"

As for #1, what was so ugly about what he did? He's off camera so we can't see if he was wearing safety glasses.The rip fence was solid and in place. He used two different push sticks to guide the piece through. The only bad thing I can see about his TS usage was that he did not have a blade guard in place, but then again making a cut that thin, the fence would have been in the way of a guard anyway. So what was so ugly about his TS use? Am I missing something?

As for #2, it's a disk sander. Other than tie back long hair and loose clothing and don't touch the moving disk with your hands, what other safety rules are there? The girl was a bit trepidatious, but I didn't see any glaring safety violations in her use of the sander. Now, mind you, for a better finish she should have been moving that wood across the disc rather than letting it sit in just one place, but that's technique not safety.

As for #3, I've never used a lathe, so you'll have to explain to me what was dangerous about his choice of tool? I mean, sure, an old file ground to an edge may not be the most stylish or gloat-worthy tool, but if it holds and edge and makes the cut, isn't that good enough? Or is it the bare tang for the handle that's bothering you? I'm guessing that you're worried about the lathe grabbing the tool and wrenching it out of her hand and shooting it across the room, cutting her hand open with that metal edge as it goes? I've never used a lathe, but is that really a risk? Doesn't the tool rest prevent that kind of thing? Or, alternatively, would the file be a safe tool if he stuck a handle on the end?


I have to agree with callee. I watched the video twice
and I did not see a darn thing wrong with the way the little girl was using the tools.

Her father used the table saw to cut the bark off of the wood and I saw *nothing* 'ugly' in his usage of it.
Where was the so-called ugliness?

The little girl herself had her hair firmly tied back, wasn't wearing loose clothing and she had her safety glasses on.
She was also taking her time with the lathe and was quite steady and careful from what I saw. She took her time and was quite patient using the lathe as well as the other tools.

Obviously her father is teaching her well IMO AND spending some quality time with his daughter.......wish I had a dad like that growing up.

Yes she was a little trepidatious using the sander but I would be too and I am 46 years old and still learning to use power tools in my woodworking classes. With that said, I think she was not quite as comfortable using the sander as she was with using the lathe.

The *only* issue I had with the video was that her hand seemed a little closer to the turning lathe then I liked but I suspect that is simply the overprotective mother in me coming out. She did have the file lying on the rest.

All and all I think the little girl did a great job handling those tools with her father right there for help if she needed it and I think she was quite proud of herself and her new pen. Her smile at the end seemed to convey that message.

I wonder if the OP's rant is simply the fact that she is a little girl learning to use power and hand tools instead of a little boy doing so.

[Roy Harding]

...

I wonder if the OP's rant is simply the fact that she is a little girl learning to use power and hand tools instead of a little boy doing so.

Please - I think you're reading FAR too much into the OP's rant.

I don't have exactly the same level of concern as the OP, but I do think the manner in which he made the first cut of the branch on the TS was pretty cavalier - especially considering that he had a Bandsaw which would have been a better choice.

Not being a turner, I'll bow to the wisdom of the observations made by those much more experienced than I.

I REALLY don't think the OP's concerns were motivated by the gender of the child involved.

[JasonD]

I wonder if the OP's rant is simply the fact that she is a little girl learning to use power and hand tools instead of a little boy doing so.

Far from it.

First, his choice of push sticks is not the best IMO, especially with a rough chunk of rounded wood.. Ideally, he should have used the bandsaw to make the wood edges more square, then used the TS on the part.. OR used a sled..

Small parts scare me, I once tried to trim a small edge off a 4" board on my 10" SCMS and it grabbed the wood and broke the laser off the saw. I dont use small parts like that anymore, they get tossed into the burn pile picked up by neighbors with woodstoves or my scrollsaw.

File.. Thats like using the rough handle edge of a butcher knive.. wouldnt do it would you? I also had a chisel catch once and it actually bent the gouge. (large beech log about 8" around)

If that caught, it would throw that with not a pretty sight.. and as a father, I wouldnt want to be the one causing that hospital visit.

I started woodworking with my oldest daughter when she was 2.5, she is 5 now and familar with the tools around the shop but is not allowed to use any without my hands on them with her except for the drill press. (she made a skateboard for her dollies out of 4 doorknob holes she cut out and a board using nails to hold the wheels on)

My next daughter is almost 3, but wont be in the shop for awhile as shes too "wild" and dont like to listen good ;)

My son who is almost 2, loves helping me when outside and keeps carrying off the wood parts ;)



The bottom line is, great job teaching his daughter woodworking, but he needs to teach her better safety or she wont be doing woodworking later in life, either scared of loosing more fingers or worse..

[Arthur]

I was going through a pile of old tools from my father, he had a similar metal file, that when I accidentally dropped it to the floor in my garage, it broke in two! It wouldn't be my choice for a lathe tool!

[JasonD]

I was going through a pile of old tools from my father, he had a similar metal file, that when I accidentally dropped it to the floor in my garage, it broke in two! It wouldn't be my choice for a lathe tool!

Yep, I broke a few over the years.. They are not meant for things like that..

Someday someone may invent a tool to be used on lathes... Wait.. they did.. maybe someone should send this guy a link to lee valleys lathe tools section so he can get a set of chisels that wont snap in two and stab someone....