Dust collection question

[PhilC]

Hello all,

I have my 13" planer, 6" jointer and contractor's table saw along with table router on one end of the shop. The planer is on a mobile base but the others are stationary. The setup has no more than 4 feet between units. Plenty for my needs.

I am in need of a dust collector. The rigid shopvac aint cuttin' it. Busy Bee's CT053 caught my eye due to its price, well within budget.

Specs:

1 HP
570 CFM
4" intake
New 1 micron upper bag
Transparent lower bag
Serves one machine
Weight: 30kg.
$179.00

I was recomended by the guy at the store I buy this book, sort of like a DC's 101. Nothing I didnt already know. I never really work on more than 1 machine at the time, so wouldn't running 4 hoses, with blast gates at the distribution center close to the inlet to the dc be sufficient for my needs?

DC --[]-------- TS

-[]-------- ROUTER

-[]------- JOINTER

-[]------ PLANER

I have the entire basement to my disposal, which means about 40' x 15' so I can always rearrange them.

Anyone have any ideas if I can use this DC?

Thx,

Phil

[Allan Johanson - South Su]

Hi Phil,

I guess what it boils down to is what will you be expecting from a DC unit?

This one will help reduce the amount of time you spend sweeping up around the shop, but it will probably have a hard time when it comes to planing wide boards. Also, it won't be able to collect the majority of fine dust from your tools.

If your budget can swing it, think about a 240V, 2HP unit.

A good rule of thumb is to take the advertised cfm numbers and divide by two in order to see what you'll probably get in your shop. This is due to the way many manufacturers test their machines (no piping and no filter bags for better sounding numbers) and in your shop you'll have these things - otherwise your DC unit isn't much use! Industry experts have noted that you'll need about 800cfm at some tools in order to grab the finest dust for better lung health. So...if you want that number, find an advertised 1600cfm DC unit. That's why I say think about the 2HP units. http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Please note that my "divide by 2" method has some exceptions, but I wanted you to understand about bloated advertising numbers.

Allan

P.S. If you want to be overwhelmed http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif with mountains of DC info, try this link:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

[Paul in Ottawa]

Phil:

As someone who owns a 1HP machine with much the same kinds of machines and set up as you, my recommendation is save your money and get a larger DC - at least 2HP with 12" impleller. Skip the 1HP model unless you want to connect it directly to each machine as you use it.

There is a significant reduction in performance as soon as you start adding duct work to your set up. As soon as I moved from direct connection to ducts I knew mine was too small.

If you want to stay with the 1HP, I'll sell you mine.

[Chris in Amherstburg]

PhilC

Also, you may want to upgrade the upper bag that comes with the BB 2HP DC with the 4' one that Lee Valley advertises at some time down the road.

I purchased an older BB 2HP and I can't believe the difference from my shopvac.

Chris.

[Darin in Victoria]

I bought the 2 HP version this year. You can attach 5" piping to it and get most of the fine dust. I believe that most people say, stay away from 4" piping, go to 6" if possible, and use 5" if your unable to go to 6". I found that you can find most 2Hp DC's with 1600 cfm (effective 800 cfm as Allan suggested) cost around $399 on sale (or regular price). IMHO you should get the 2Hp instead of the 1.

[Gari]

How would one go about getting 220V wiring hooked up? Is is a simple matter of contacting a sparky? Do you require a permit? What would the cost be to add a few connections?

Thanks in advance!

[Allan Johanson - South Su]

Call up a local electrician and YES, a permit is required whenever you make changes to the breaker box. But the permit must be taken out by the person doing the work, so the electrician will take care of that.

But be sure to tell him you want the permit to be taken out. Many guys will try to let it slide, but technically that is a no-no. But you don't want to be in a position where electrical work was done on your house without a valid permit, because that could result in problems if a fire were to start in the shop (house insurance might be void), or when you sell your house in the future. What are you going to say on the Property Condition Disclosure Statement? You should say work was done WITHOUT a permit if you never got one. If you lie about it, you can be sued at a later date.

As for cost....it shouldn't be too much. A few hundred perhaps for a few circuits, depending on what you want done. You can do some of the work yourself to reduce the cost. Install boxes, remove some drywall for the wires, etc. Then the guys will just have to drill some holes, run the wires, and make the hookups. It goes pretty fast then. Fishing wires in finished walls takes more time.

Or to reduce the cost even further, you can run all the wires yourself in metal conduit around your shop and leave extra wire lengths at the ends for the breaker box and plug. Let "sparky" do the hook-ups. They'll probably charge $65/hr or so with some minimum of an hour or two.

Allan

[PhilC]

BB's CT030 DUST COLLECTOR 2HP 1596 CFM 1 MICRON goes for $425 (whoa) which is quite a bit of money for a tool you use indirectly. I can see spending that much on a router or jointer but not on a tool which I use indirectly. There just has to be a better price/way.

Why in heaven's name does BB even manufacture DC's that are rated at 570CFM if they only suck up 285CFM realistically? Sounds to me like a trap for amateur ww's who don't really know any better.

I am not planning on having any more than 6FT of flexible pipe from machine to DC at any one time. Do I really have to fork out $400+taxes for something like this? I mean, my shopvac does a great job, it just fills up quickly!!!

[Allan Johanson - South Su]

Hi Phil,

I totally understand your "sticker shock". I'm on my 3rd DC unit though. My first was a puny one with similar specs to the 1HP you saw, my second was a 2HP unit like the one you are reacting to now, and my 3rd is my large cyclone with a 5HP motor (overkill) and a 14" impeller (homemade cyclone costing about $1000). I think I'm done upgrading. http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I see things in a different way. To turn a piece of rough wood into a tabletop, I could use my jointer, planer, bandsaw and tablesaw. But I'll be using my DC unit during EACH of these phases. Since it'll be used so often, it should be of high enough quality so it'll not only do a great job, but so it'll last.

To me it isn't just an "indirect" tool, it's a serious machine that will contribute to my enjoying this hobby for decades to come. That, to me, is worth far more than the cost of the machine.

BTW, you don't have to do anything. My personal philosophy about this is to do what you can if you want to protect your lungs. In my case, I wear a certified respirator when in the shop, and I'll spend what I can afford on a DC unit. That's why mine changed over the years. As I got more educated about the topic and as my wallet could handle it, I upgraded the DC unit.

Maybe a way for you to think about it is like this:

On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is "extremely concerned", how concerned are you about your lung health?

The higher up the scale your concern is, the more you should spend on a DC unit.

Allan

[Bob, in Lachute, Qc.]

hi Phil, You got a good answer from Alan, and the rest of the guys. In answer to your question, it all depends on how serious you are about gathering all the dust, or just the larger waste.

In your case, being new to dc's, you might be better off looking for a used 2hp dc, that is capable of handling 6" pipe. That would probably see all your needs answered for a long time to come.

Take the time to read at least some of Bill Pentz' site. You'll be well armed, to make a wise choice. Pay special attention to filtration, and the importance of impeller size/duct size.

Buying an inferior quality dc, of poor design, is an exercise in frustration; dust leaks, poor suction, and costly upgrades.

A quality dc, on the other hand, means no expensive upgrades, a clean house, healthy lungs, and no dust settling out of the air, on to that newly varnished masterpiece you just created.

Good luck, Bob

[Ken in Regina]

Phil, I'm confused now. In your first email you said that you were going to do a duct network with blast gates. Now you say that you won't have more than 6 ft of flex hose. Have you changed your mind on how you plan to connect, or have I missed something?

From the description of the locations in your original message, it sounds like you would have up to 6 ft of flex hose AND some length of ducting that the hose would be connected to. Is that the case, or have I misread something somewhere?

If you will have up to 6 ft of flex hose AND some ducting, you will really strangle that dust collector. On the other hand, if you now plan to simply connect it to each individual machine, directly, with a 6 ft piece of flex hose that you move from machine to machine as you use them, that will be fairly effective.

But to truthfully and usefully answer your questions about dust collection we need to know what your personal goal is. If you only want to avoid sweeping up wood chips, a 1 HP will work great. If you want protect your lungs, the is if you want enough airflow to capture the maximum possible amount of the fine dust at the source, then you need about 800 cfm of airflow AT THE MACHINE to do the job.

To sum up the question of dust collection, if you care about protecting your lungs, you need to capture the fine dust particles before they get into your lungs.

You can do that by wearing a properly fitting respirator of some sort with the right kind of particulate filters and then use whatever chip and shaving collector suits your fancy. 1 HP is lots to capture the chips and shavings from most machines with the possible exception of the large volumes of shavings generated by the thickness planer (this is more a function of the capacity of the bottom bag than of the suction of the dust collector). If you go this route, and your goal is lung protection, you need to wear your respirator faithfully. Not just during the creation of the dust, but until it has all settled or blown out or been filtered out somehow. That means you need to wear the respirator prety much the entire time you are in the shop, regardles of how little machining you do during the session.

The alternative, if lung protection is your goal, is to go for a larger dust collector and make sure it has a bag or filter that actually collects the fine dust and doesn't simply recirculate it. You need one that will give 800 cfm at the machine it's connected to. That means you fudge the manufacturer's rating to take into account that it's a "peak" rating, usually taken just before the motor blows up, and then factor in the drag of the duct network and connections to the machines. The latter can reduce the airflow by a surprising amount.

This is probably all stuff you already have some awareness of, but now you are going to make a decision and spend some money. If it helps, please note that although Allan Johansen has spent a bunch of money and even more time and energy on his spiffy new cyclone, he's STILL planning to wear a respirator when he's machining anything that makes fine dust. That should tell you something about your best option if you are cash strapped. (For those who haven't been paying attention, spend some good bucks on a respirator, commit to wearing it!! and use whatever you want for your automated floor sweeper, from a big shop vacuum to a cheap dust collector.)

If you aren't concerned about lung protection and just want a surrogate sweeper, do whatever your wallet tells you. There is no amount of discussion in here that will be useful to you because the main focus on dust collection (as opposed to chip and shaving collection) is lung protection and that's all you are going to hear.

[Art Mulder (London)]

Allan, I think it'd be interesting to see a survey of how many people actually do take out permits.

The shelves of Home Depot and Rona are crammed with electrical wires, fuses, switches, recepticals, and so on. Do all those DIY'ers trot off downtown to get a permit?

At what point do you need a permit? Changing a light switch? adding a recepticle to an existing circuit? Opening the panel to add a breaker?

I don't mean to be picking on you, and I hope it doesn't come across as such. I just have seen that "be sure to get a permit" advice a lot over the years in magazines and web-forums. I find myself skeptical.

...art

ps: I visited the city of London web site, and found the section about building permits, however it does not say anything about electrical work. Hmm, must be somewhere else

[Jamie in Brantford]

I've got the BB 1hp unit, and it won't work on a system. It works great on one machine, but won't handle the long runs.

[phil]

Thanks everyone. THis is definately insightful. I will probably hold of a bit longer until I can afford the 2hp 1800 cfm unit and not have to upgrade at a later date.

Good ol' shop vac will have to last me a wee bit longer.

Thanks again.

[Allan Johanson - South Su]

Hi Art,

No worries about "picking on me". I don't see it that way. I figure the vast majority of people don't bother getting permits when they should. But I don't see what you could be skeptical about - if the city requires it, then you need it. It's that simple. Disobeying that could lead to disasterous results. You can phone your local electrical inspector and tell him exactly what you want to do. He will then tell you what you should do re: permit requirements.

My brother got sued over a mistake on his property disclosure statement when he sold his house, and my wife was a legal assistant and has seen many cases of people paying a very high price because they tried to avoid some "red tape" at various levels of government. There are unlucky people out there who tried to take a shortcut and now will have their assets seized and wages garnished for years to pay back massive judgements against them.

For $40-$70 (or whatever it ends up being), it just isn't worth it. Also, that fee also entitles you to have an inspector come around and double-check all the work that was done. This is for your own safety, and the safety of others in your house. I've dealt with some inspectors in my area and they are great to work with. The homeowner can ask qeustions on the phone and one inspector offered to come by my house to show me where a suitable subpanel location would be, PRIOR to me filing my permit! How's that for service?

I'm sure others may have some horror stories about how they may have been mistreated by inspectors, but in the end the LEGAL thing to do is to obey the rules and get the permit.

I couldn't recommend anything less. But in the end most will ignore this advice and roll the dice and will get away with it.

But some won't.

Allan

[Darin in Victoria]

Do your lungs a favour and also get a respirator if you don't have one already. I still wear one a lot in the shop even though I have the DC. My wife had an uncle that died from the dust and that is one reason that I got a DC. If I had the ceiling clearance I would have gone with the 3hp to ensure that most of all the fine dust was gone from the shop.

[VivaVegas]

Art,

Here in Ontario, the ESA is the authority one deals with, not the local city, town or municipality because their provence ends at the meter base.

The ESA looks after everything that happens after the power reaches the meter base. Essentially, no one needs a permit to change a broken receptacle or switch. However, installing a sub-panel into your garage or newly built workshop does require a permit. So does adding circuits to the main panel. Lots of people THINK they know how to do it but miss some small but important details that just may be life threatening.

An electrical inspector is a knowledgable second set of eyes that will check over what you did and make sure all the rules are followed. The fee is fairly small in comparison to the benefit of knowing everytning you did was done to CODE so that your family can sleep safe.

So yes, places like HD sell lots of wire and devices to people who do not take out permits. That does not mean doing so is a smart move. The fire marshalls across the country see improperly installed wiring all the time as the source cause of fires.

If you are not 100 percent sure of what you are doing, then you should hire an electrician. Putting your wiring inside metal conduit, as Allen suggested is one way to go BUT, to do it properly, you need a pipe bending tool. You also need to know about things such as "wire fill" in the conduit and boxes you choose to use. Too many wires plus marrettes will prevent you from being approved by an inspector.

Wiring is not as simple as some people think.

Vegas



ESA (http://www.esainspection.net/)

[Art Mulder (London)]

Vegas,

"An electrical inspector is a knowledgable second set of eyes that will check over what you did and make sure all the rules are followed. The fee is fairly small in comparison to the benefit of knowing everytning you did was done to CODE so that your family can sleep safe.

"So yes, places like HD sell lots of wire and devices to people who do not take out permits. That does not mean doing so is a smart move. The fire marshalls across the country see improperly installed wiring all the time as the source cause of fires. "

(I'll keep playing devil's advocate here)

Hey Vegas, thanks for the pointer to the esa web page. It was interesting to read about. I downloaded their quick-reference pricing guide for residential fees. I found it a bit confusing. However, it appears that the charge for homeowners is a minimum of $107 per hour (or fraction thereof) for a general inspection.

Now, if I'm building a house, a fee of a few hundred dollars is no big deal. But if I'm just adding a simple one-outlet circuit to my shop for my dust collector or table saw... now we've taken a job which had a price of maybe $25 in parts for an outlet, some wiring, and a breaker. To that, we've tacked on $107 for an inspection. Suddenly, it's not such a deal anymore.

I'm not arguing against the importance of following code, and I would agree that anyone who does not know what they are doing should hire an electrician.

I note that the esa website offers a "General Inspections" service... "General Inspections - A visual inspection of a facility or residence to identify electrical shock and fire hazards. To arrange for a general inspection call 1-877-esa-safe.
Inspection Certificates - Are your personal record confirming that the electrical installation(s) in your home."

That's a direct quote. It seems a bit messed up (like they dropped a few words), but the implication is that you can have them inspect your home and have them issue a certificate.

That would seem like a good service to offer for people to use when they buy/sell a home. After all you *know* people are doing minor electrical work all the time without permits. Why not offer a reasonable service to check up on that at intervals and clear all of the work in one fell swoop?

After all, a person could create fire hazard by replacing a light fixture (which does not require a permit) just as well as by adding a circuit.

Hmmm. In our increasingly litigous society, I could see this scenario: Someone does some electrical work w/out a permit. There is a problem. The insurance company takes them to task for not getting a permit. The individual turns around and sue's Home Depot for (a) NOT putting up giant signs in the electrical aisle warning people to get permits, and (b) for having helpful associates explain how to wire up a circuit and NOT warn people about getting a permit.

well I think that's enough on that topic.
...art