spraying lacquer

[jay]

Hi guys I've always used urethanes to finish a project and thought I would like to try spraying a lacquer finish but don't know much about it. Does anyone have thoughts on what type of sprayer to use. I don't want to dish out alot for an hvlp and thought I could just set up with my compressor(5hp 125psi). Also is there anywhere in the Woodstock area to buy lacquer and sanding sealer?
Thanks for the help.
Jay

[Tom in Toronto]

>>Hi guys I've always used urethanes to finish a project and thought I would like to try

spraying a lacquer finish but don't know much about it. Does anyone have thoughts on

what type of sprayer to use. I don't want to dish out alot for an hvlp and thought I could

just set up with my compressor(5hp 125psi).

- You can use a conventional spray gun ($40) but you'll get lots more overspray than with HVLP. I'd look at an HVLP conversion gun as you can use it with your 5HP compressor. Expect to spend $150-$500 for one.
- I presume you also mean solvent lacquer and not water based. You'll need an explosion proof spray booth and exhaust system. (Don't try this in your basement.)

Tom

[Mike G. in SOO ONT]

Tom, can you use an airbrush to spray laquer?

Thanks Mike

[Roman]

Hi You do not need a lot of air pressure you just need a lot of volume unless you use air assited sytems like Greco or Kremlin, in any case a lot of money. Generally the more you spend on the spray gun the better the finish, Its up to you.

Almost all of the laquers ( with the exception of some water based) cause serious and permanent neurological damge with long term exposure to the gases. They are extremely combustable, danger, and are fussy about humidity, temperature, sunlight,

A proper spray booth and respirator are required and the cash outlay is prohibitive. Some come catalized and some require catalyst, the more you get into laquers the more it gets complicated. I would stick to urathane which if thinned can be sprayed through a cup gun. Regards Roman

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

Hi Jay. I have a lot of experience spraying lacquers, and I would avoid them in a home shop. All of the stuff Roman says is true, and it would be dangerous in more ways than one.

I get a lacquer quality finish from waterbase, believe it or not. I can spray over solvent based stains, linseed oil, etc. If you are in the Burford area, I could show you my setup, what I use, and a sample of my finish. I spent some time experimenting, and I would love to see someone else try it. Email me if you are interested.

Jamie

[W.Y. in BC (sunny and hot]

Mike; I have an email freind in USA who has been spraying satin laquer on large scrollsaw clocks with an airbrush. He uses a 20" box fan on low speed in a window that totally removes any overspray. I questioned him about the possible dangers of the fan motor and he said he has being doing it for 20 years and claims there is no danger because of the brushless motor in those fans. I am going to order the same Passche airbrush that he is using. I can send you a link for Passche if your interested.
W.Y.

[W.Y. in BC (sunny and hot]

Jamie; I had no idea you could spray waterbase over BLO . Could you please let me in on the product names and some info on the system you use. If it's too long to post here, please email the info. I am really leary about using a box fan in a window with laquer but it should be safe with a waterbase. I always use BLO first on my clocks because it "pops" the grain beautifully.
W.Y.

[Steve in Kemptville, On.]

I'm interested in trying spraying also and would be very interested to hear your tips and a rundown of your setup etc... Please post it or forward and email to me also. Thanks.

[Mike G. in SOO ONT]

William, you sent me that info already thanks anyway. Mike

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

I let the BLO dry for 48 hours first. What I use is Varathane Diamond Elite satin finish. I got a deal on floor finish (four gallons for $25), so that's what I'm using now, although I have used the regular stuff. I spray it on using a remote cup spray gun, although any gun can be used. One heavy coat, sand with 220, then a finish coat. It's been a year since my first foray into this, and no problems. I cannot foresee any problems in the future.

[W.Y. in BC (sunny and hot]

OOPPSS Sory Mike. I must have been having a senior moment.
W.Y.

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

I use a Coleman Powermate 4 hp portable compressor. To spray, you will have to make sure you get at least 7 cfm at 40 psi. I ues a 2hp Porter Cable wiener style compressor at work that delivered this cfm, but is discontinued now. CFM is the key. I also use a remote cup spray gun that is available at House of Tools and Princess Auto for $150.

My Method:
Stain with oilbase, or use boiled linseed oil for depth, and let dry for 48 hours. I have pushed this and sprayed six hours after staining with no ill effects.
Spray on one heavy coat, and let dry for four hours and sand lightly with 220 grit to smooth out and take off the raised wood fibres you get with water based finishes.
Spray on a second coat, and voila, you are done.
If I decide to put a third coat on, I sand again with 220, then spray a third time.

If you are finishing doors, waterbased is great. You can spray one side, wait an hour or two, then spray the other side without worrying about wrecking the finish on the first side by setting it on your drying rack.

If you have any more questions, email me. I'm pretty excited about this finish. I used to be a cabinetmaker, and it took me a long time to get professional quality finish that was quick in my home shop.

[Tom in Toronto]

Depends on the size of the project you are spraying (i.e. a chest of drawers is too big a surface).

[Roman]

I agree with Tom 100%

[Tom in Toronto]

Jamie, glad to hear you get good results with the Varathane. I've never had good results with that product and found the Minwax Ploycrylic to flow out better.

[Tom in Toronto]

Jamie, what needle/nozzle setup are you using and did you thin (with water or glycol). Perhaps that makes the difference because I sprayed right from the can.

[David in London]

Jamie,

Do you have a specific make and model of this gun?

How much over spray did you get?

Does it require an exhaust fan?

Thanks,

David.

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

I've still got a couple gallons of my diamond elite left, but I'll try the Minwax Polycrylic when I have to pick more up. By the way, is this the Tom that I got the dust collector from?

[Bryan Cowing, (Innerkip )]

You can get lacquer and sanding sealer from Schaus Interiors in Woodstock. I use a Wagner hvlp system and I have no trouble spraying in my garage/ workshop. You can get a HVLP gun from T S C store (under $200). You will need a cartridge filter mask for the fumes. The nice thing about hvlp is there is hardly any overspray. I crack open the garage door and man door for small air flow when spraying. I don't recomend doing this in a basement shop.

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

You know, I never even considered the nozzle or needle size. It was just swell right from the box. I will check it out and get back to you. I don't thin the finish. It was also just swell right out of the can.

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

The model of gun I use is the Force APE101, available from House of Tools for 149.99. Below, I put a link to their spray gun page. You can get them at Princess Auto for the same price, and they were on sale for $79.99 a couple of months ago.

I get a fair amount of overspray, but not as bad as some. The gun has separate fluid and air adjustments, so I go heavier on the fluid and lighter on the air. My furnace in the shop is directly vented outside, so I just turn on the air, and it clears the air out. I also use a good respirator.

http://houseoftools.com/hot/productviewer/product_frameset.asp?id=26&brandid=-1

[Ken (Ottawa Valley)]

Jay, here's one more man's experience. I've been using primarily lacquer sprayed finishes for the past 15 years or so. I switched to HVLP about 4 years ago and wished I did it long ago. You waste a fraction of the medium and the air stays much clearer. I have a bank of induction motored fans to exhaust the corner of my shop where I spray. I'll build a dedicated booth at some time. I have invested in a forced air ventilation hood (very expensive, about $1,500) because lacquers are nasty to breath. I find lacquer the easiest of finishes. It dries virtually instantly so you get no dust marks; you can cut polish it (try that with urethanes); if it dries in the gun it dissolves easily (I clean my gun about twice a year); you can get it tinted for toning poorly figured wood or get it coloured opaque or translucent; you can easily correct most spraying errors; yada, yada, yada...

If you decide to go to lacquers don't just head to HD or CTC and by a $30 mask. Go to a safety supplier, get fitted and be sure you bring the product safety data sheet for the lacquer you'll be using. There are dozens of cartridges and the general purpose ones at HD etc have a small fraction of the media needed for lacquer so they are of no value very quickly. As well, few of the cheapie masks actually fit well enough to provide safe protection.

[jay]

Thanks for the opinions guys. It's nice to see a variety of opinions when you are pretty ignorant on the subject.
Jay

[Roman]

I am going to repeat myself that long term exposure to lacquer fumes CAUSES serious and permanent neurological damage not to mention a long list of other afflictions.

I use Lacquer as it is quick, durable, and has a meriad of uses. But it isnt cheap, it wasnt meant to be sprayed at home except maybe an airbrush and it is extremely combustable.Leave the lid off a open pail wait a day and with the right spark or flame ie a furnace you might find yourself parked next to the space station If you have an open spray booth than go for it but this creates other problems.

When ever you move a lot of air out of a room you also have to move a lot in. This can cause a static build in the air, more problems especially if you are spraying high gloss finish in black or white. Particles that float become charged opposite of those touching the ground like the piece you are finishing, leaving spots.

I had to purchase a positive pressure automotive spray booth with a separate air make up climatically controlled and 75,000 dollars later it works great.

My point is, whats wrong with urathane or Circa 1850 paste varnish, it does an excellent job and I quite like the paste varnish available at HD. Its fast, inexpensive and easy, and it cant kill you.

Best Regards Roman

http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=fshp&i=7764011&w=256&h=172>

[Bob Wolfe (Weyburn,Sk.)]

Get a real good mask even if you spray water based products. For a good mask, go to any agricultural chemical supplier. They wll stock chemical rated masks and the appropriate cartridges. I use cartridges rated for organophosphates, which should be about the best rated. I get mine from the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool Ag. Supply Centre.

It is trickier to get a cheapo gun to work really well. I use a CT cheapo Cambell Hausfield for spraying sanding sealer and primers. I then use a Binks gun for finish coats.

I have just purchased an DeVillbiss HVLP gravity feed gun. The gravity feed saves cfm's in the compressor. I have a 5 hp twin compressor that is barely rated to handle this gun. This gun was recommended by a DEvillbiss rep. I corresponded with on the net. I have not used the gun yet but will in the next few days refinishing a truck.

The last lacquer I sprayed was a precatylized product, used on mahogany chairs. I was very impressed. I still like it better than water based poly. I always seem to get that "plastic coating" look with polyurethane, whether I spray or brush. I guess I need to learn more.

I have somewhat poor ventilation in my shop. When I spray lacquer, I put the compressor outside and shut off all the lights and make sure no electric sparks happen. I am putting in a sparkproof motor on an exhaust fan as soon as I can find one I like.

[Bryan Cowing]

I consider lacquer an ok product for a home hobbist. A gallon of finish sometimes lasts me more than a year.I would not use it with a regular gun as the air in the shop turns to a white cloud( I borrowed a gun to try it out) With my little wagner sprayer I can put a nice finish on a project(2 or 3 per year). With a positve air flow through the garage and my $50 mask I have not had any problems using lacquer in 6 yrs of ocassional use. I still use poly on other projects, but for that armoire or washstand, lacquer was the way to go.

Pics of 20 yrs of woodworking (http://community.webshots.com/user/bcowing)
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/031/cZ/Wq/ty/MX85059.jpg

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

Bob, how do you like the gravity feed gun? I always wanted to try one. Can you spray upside down? It looks like you might be able to.

[Tom in Toronto]

[Tom in Toronto]

You can't spray upside-down with most gravity feed guns. DeVilbiss (or Sharpe I think) has a gravity gun that uses a bag in the cup which does enable you to spray upside-down, but only for a limited spurt.

Pressure feed allows you to spray upside-down but you already know this.

[Tom in Toronto]

Jamie I'm using a 1.5mm N/N setup in my gravity gun.

[jay]

I checked with Schaus interiors to see if they had lacquer and they didn't. They told me they have a product called stay clear, is this the product that you were referring to?
Jay

[Bryan Cowing]

They used to sell it. Macdonald was the brand name. I havn't bought from them in 2 yrs . Try Colour Shoppe at 205 colbourne or 403 fairview dr. Brantford or on Ontario st, east end, in Stratford across from the mall area. They carry the Guardsman line. My favourite is Saunders W E & sons painters ltd in Delhi. They deliver to Woodstock area.They are at 682 James st /#3 hwy at the south end of Delhi. They sell Magnalac brand lacquer & sealers. I tried their product after visiting their booth at the Woodstock wood show.

[Jamie in Brantofrd]

Hi Bryan. I used to get some lacquer from Mayfair Paint. I also used to get water based lacquer from The Colour Shoppe.

Are you from Brantford? If you are, we could team up for wood buying trips or tool excursions and save some money on gas. About a month ago I made a trip to Kooturs with Paul Opalinski from Paris. Good time had by both of us.

[Bryan Cowing]

I am 7 km north ( cty rd #4, Wal-Mart) of the east end of Woodstock.I am aprox 30 minutes to Brantford using the 403.

[Bob Wolfe (Weyburn,Sk.)]

I have the Finish Line model Flg-635-316. I has a bag liner for the cup for upside down spraying. It comes with two tips.

I have not used this gun yet but hope to repaint a 76 Ford F150 this week.

The lacquer I used last was a precatalyzed lacquer. It does not require mixing the lacquer and the catalyst together. It worked really well. I got it from a commercial General paints shop in Regina. It worked very well.

Before this product I was using a two part lacquer (lacquer and catalyst) from European Cabinets in Saskatoon. It cane in a 20 litre pail, probably more than you want. I can buy the precatalysed by the gallon, which works well for me.
BW

[Paul O'H Ingersoll]

Jamie
are you in Burford?? I go to brantford occasionally via 53. I amm going to see my lumber supplier in Sept.
paul