OTish - electrical question

[Denis Chénard, Ottawa]

My sister just purchased a house in ScareBorough. The inspector told her that all the electrical has to be replaced (wiring and all). The house looks like it was built in the '60s. She only has a 60 amp main panel, I recommended she go to 200 amp.

Now why would all the wiring need to be replaced? It doesn't make sense to me. I smell a rat here...

She also got aproximate quotes for the work, and they came back at $6-7k, which seems like a lot. That rat smell again...

Can anyone give me a reason why all the wiring would need to be replaced, and is the quote reasonable in the GTA area?

Thnx,

DC

[Lee]

Is it aluminum wiring?

[Felix in Brampton]

I think you need more details from the horses mouth.

We were on a 60A fuse panel and when we changed insurance companies 5 years ago, they made us go to a breaker panel (60 year old house). Luckily we had 200A service from the street. Kept all the old house wiring though, and the inspector said nothing. Can't see why wiring would have to be redone unless it's obvious it's in really poor condition/badly done or if she's on the old knob and tube wiring from the early 1900's.

Maybe he's saying that it has to be brought up to standards in terms of separate circuits where required, dryer, hot water tank, stove, etc.?

Also, $6500 might be a high, but maybe not at all out of line depending on what needs to be done (at pro rates), how many runs, mounting new switches receptables and repairs, etc.

[Peter Harvey]

That was my first thought.
Check the credentials of the inspector and if you are still unsure get a second opinion and quote.
Why wasn't the housse inspected before purchase as these inspections can prevent later grief and add little to the oveall cost of the purchase.

[Felix in Brampton]

I don't think the inspector would force a homeowner to replace aluminum, otherwise there'd be thousands of people in Ontario in the same situation every year.

Unless things are changing?...

[Jmcshe]

Which inspector? A city electrical inspector or a private "House" inspector. If it's a "House" inspector, ask the city to have their electrical inspector look at it. If it's the city inspector, I would ask for a second one to check it out.

Good Luck

[les @ terrace]

It could be nob and tube or paper wraped/asphalt coated, If it's one of these I'd replace it.

Having done this a few times I can say it is usally cheaper/safer to have cheap labour come in and rip out all the old wiring and have it replaced by the qualified person. There are a lot of reasons why it should be replaced.

Get a second and/or third opinion.

[Andrew in Ayr]

You should actually contact the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority).

http://www.esainspection.net/

They are the ones who do inspections in Ontario now. Denis, your sister may have had a private home inspector come in to have this done, and he is trying to cover his ass. The ESA will be able to tell her for certain if its safe. Their website specifically says this:

"Background Information on Home Insurance Update:
ESA is aware that some property and casualty insurers are refusing to insure, or renew policies on, residential properties with 60 amp service, aluminium wiring or knob and tube wiring. The Electrical Safety Authority must inspect changes to electrical service to support insurance coverage.

The Ontario Electrical Safety Code does not impose a legal requirement to upgrade or replace these services. A 60-amp service or a service with knob and tube or aluminium wiring is not necessarily problematic in itself so long as it was properly installed and maintained. "

[Denis Chénard, Ottawa]

And I'll get more details. I didn't think about the aluminium wiring, that might be it...

DC

[Denis Chénard, Ottawa]

No mention of aluminium. The house is old (maybe older than I thought), but according to her inspector (who is the 'Home Inspector' on HGTV, Alex Welsh), few outlets are grounded, those that are grounded have been done incorrectly, there's only four circuits servicing the whole house (I assume this excludes the stove and dryer), and many dangerous connections.

Might not be a total rewiring job, but it should be close...

Based on that, does the $6-7k estimate make more sense (that includes a new 200 amp panel)?

Thanks again,

DC

[Bryan @ Woodstock, On]

Get quotes from 3 elctricians, they give the best advice. Maybe all she needs is a new panel,& some extra wiring. A new panel and breakers could run a grand for the parts. The wiring should be made safe!

[Bodger (Toronto, Ontario)]

The house I grew up in is in Scarborough, built in 1954. It has a 60 Amp service and everything originally was on about 4 circuits until my Dad finsished the basement and added a few more. The circuits do not have a ground, just like your sisters house.

I have never heard of a requirement to change the outlets from the original two prongs. If the outlets were changed to three prong that would be improper, and I suspect, illegal.

The insurance companies are getting anal about 60 amp service and are trying to force people to upgrade to 100 amp. This frequently happens at the time of purchase/sale.

I think your sister is being sold a bill of goods. She probably should upgrade the service, but changing all the circuits is going a bit too far in my opinion.

It should be easy enough to talk to someone at Toronto Hydro, or the building standards people at the city.

Bodger

['The Sister']

Yes, I'm the now infamous 'Sister'. I just wanted to set the record straight. The inspection on our new house showed an antiquated electrical system that does not correspond to our needs at all: 60Amp entry that takes in water, not enough circuits, wrong fuses, faulty wiring, improper connections, no junction boxes, reversed polarity, no ground, non water-tight lights above tub/shower, etc. - hence the recommendation to do significant rewiring.

The inspector did a great job and his concerns are like mine: safety and reliability. We will be running major electrical instrumentation in this house (kiln, guitar amps, computers, etc.) and we therefore need to ensure that it won't be a liability. He didn't 'quote' me a cost for the repairs but rather gave me an idea of what we should expect to pay. We still have to get proper quotes in.

I'm posting this because it's rare nowadays to find someone who really cares for their job and I felt that our Inspector (Alex Welsh) did so very much - he took more than 4 1/2 hours to inspect every little crevaces of our 1,300 sq.ft. bungalow. I would hate for his reputation to be tarnished and would actually recommend him to anyone who's in need of a good inspector in the Toronto area.

['The Sister']

Let me change that to 'highly recommand him'. He was great and really gave us a clear picture of what we were getting ourselves into.

[Denis Chénard, Orléans, O]

Hey, you did better in explaining the whole story than in five e-mails or so! http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I didn't want to tarnish Alex's reputation, and I should have mentioned how good a job he did, now that I have the whole story. Apologies for that...

So here you go...

The horse's brother http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

P.S. Lots of info here, come back anytime!

['The Sister']

Looks like an excellent resource indeed - now that i actually have room to do woodwork and stuff to repair, i'll be checking it out regulrarly. BTW, thanks to everyone who offered advice. Some good stuff here.

cheers,
The Sister - aka The Horse (could think of a more flattering nickname)

[Pat in Burlington]

I will jump in here with an example. An electrical contractor came in and gave a neighbor a quote on removing the Aluminum wiring in their house and replace it with copper. It was about a 1800 Sq ft house. They already had the 100 amp panel installed already. The quote was $5,000. Most of the dollars are for the labour as it is a really labour intensive job. They have to take each plug in the wall up through the floor, connect the plug and then back down, along the basement cieling and then back up again. That is alot of fishing of wires and alot of time locating the proper spots. Not a nice job trust me.

So to replace a 60 amp with a 200 amp service, that is about in the proepr ball park. Just to get Hydro in to upgrade the run to 200 amps I believe is $500-700 and the panel and new breakers to cover the house would run you $1500 or there abouts. I just increasemy basement with some new breakers and they were $25-40 each depending on the amps and the doubel breakers for the kitchen are close to $70.

Good luck!!

Cheers!!

Pat

[Wayne Powell in Waterdown]

Aluminum is the worst! My parent's house is aluminum and a section of our house WAS aluminum, and in both cases I found that the sheathing around wires near recepticles had melted or been stress cracked through repeated heating / cooling of over loaded wiring. I could visualize the fire starting from the damage that I inspected.

My personal opinion, I've helped re-wired portions of three houses, but I am not an electrician, but I firmly believe inthe safety of copper wire.

Wayne from Waterdown

[Wayne Powell in Waterdown]

We've had friends replace knob and tube in an old Toronto house at a higher cost, but the team that came in were specialists, and somehow they re-wired the house without having to take down all the lather and plaster walls, it was amazing, and the damage was minimal.

Wayne from Waterdown

[Wayne Powell in Waterdown]

I'll repeat this here:

We've had friends replace knob and tube in a large old Toronto house at a higher cost, but the team that came in were specialists, and somehow they re-wired the house without having to take down all the lathe and plaster walls, it was amazing, and the damage was minimal.

A good pre-sale house inspector is worth his weight in gold, likely you wouldn't have bought the house if you felt the electrical upgrade wasn't worth the cost/value of the house.

Wayne from Waterdown

[Bill Howatt]

Aluminum wire is safe IF it is installed correctly and with the proper receptacles and connectors. Early receptacles had too small screw heads and were subsequently redesigned. You also have to be very careful stripping it such that you don't nick the conductor and you have to use wire 1 size larger for the same current (#12 instead of #14 for copper).

Unfortunately, the need for a careful installation doesn't exactly lend itself to the way a lot of people do things these days and finding the proper parts isn't easy unless you are a contractor.

I had a house with aluminum and copper wiring that was over 25 yrs old when I moved out and the only trouble I had with wiring was a loose copper neutral in the panel.

All of the wire on utility poles is aluminum so it can't be a total disaster. But having said that, I would prefer copper.

Bill

[Rob in Ottawa]

The safety issues noted above aside, insurance companies are really taking a hard line on anything they deem a risk. Even though old wiring may be safe as far as Hydro is concerned, they will still insist on upgrades. A friend of mine was forced to upgrade a year ago because his insurance company gave him an ultimatum and he couldn't get new coverage elsewhere.

Rob

[Gump in Renfrew]

Better a horse than a chipmunk packing it away for the winter.

[Felix in Brampton]

and not a close family relation!

Best of luck with the upgrades.

['The Sister']

Wow, that's quite the picture... Denis at his best, I would say. If you have any more of these, please send them along http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Paul in Ottawa]

I haven't seen that camera since the December meeting, Gump. Did Denis break it?

[Denis Chénard, Ottawa]

Got me on that one... I owe you... http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

DC

[Denis Chénard, Ottawa]

I've got some really nice ones of you too... http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

DC

[Ken in Regina]

Thanks for the excellent description of the situation. That's a significantly different picture than I got from Denis' description. It sounds like major rework is the only sensible solution for what you want to achieve.

Maybe we should refer to the horse's brother as some other part of the horse? Somewhere near the tail?