Shop Lighting *PIC*

[Les@Brownsville]

I am just finishing building a 24ft x 56ft building (combo dbl garage and workshop). The workshop portion is 24ft x 32 ft with 9 1/2 ft ceiling. The interior walls will be painted white. I am in the process of wiring and am about to purchase the lighting. It has been suggested to me that two rows of 16ft fluorescent lights secured to the ceiling and running lenghtwise would be sufficient lighting.

I would be interested in any comments, or views you may have on the lighting suggested. Or any better suggestions for the lighting.

Much appreciated

Les



http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/chat/pics/pic173148.jpg

[Art in London]

Les,
I have not (yet) built myself a shop, but I *really* liked how Ken in Regina did his shop lighting.

The idea is that you never know if you're going to rearrange tools in the future. So he put in a row or two of switch outlets in the ceiling. The fluorescents are then all wired up with plugs. So if he suddenly needs to move a light, he can just unscrew it, and reposition it, and then plug it back in.

...art
ps: I'd also go for the electronic ballast t8 bulbs. instant on, and no discernable flicker.

[Ken Jones in Pembroke]

Hi Les
My shop is 26x30 and I have 8 -four foot flourescent and 4 - 100 watt incandescent on a separate line. The flourescent gives ample light ( I use the daylight tubes), and the incandescent is available when not a lot of light is needed ( like watching a hockey game with a cool one). I recently bought 4 of the energy efficient compact flourescent bulbs and I am now wondering if I should have put in more of those instead of the tubes.

[dan in saskatoon]

have a 11x20 shop 9' cielings use 2 rows of 4 lights(small energy effiecent ones 15 watts and 23 watts) plenty of light no shadow and my vision is not good. have less than 200watts total and lights it up good
.

[Paul Egan]

I have just finished my shop - 23' x 20'. I have banks of lights going in the 23' direction. Two rows of an 8' + 8' + 4'. As well I have 4'
ones at two other locations on the sides.
I used "Lighting for the Workshop" by Jack Lindsey,
Fine Woodworking Jan/Feb 2002 as my reference.
I am very satisfied with the results. Get a hold of
this article - it was a great help to me.
cheers, Paul

[Ken in Dartmouth]

I'm with you, Dan. My shop is about the same size as yours, and I have six 23-watt compact fluorescents, with flex lamps over the lathe, mitre saw and workbench, also with 23-watt CFs. Seems to be a lot cheaper than than fluorescent tubes for the same light output.

Regards,
Ken

[Dean in Burlington]

Les,

I have 2 8' T12s Cold weather and 2 4' T8s Cold weather. The 4' T8s are by far better. The T8's take the smaller diameter tube that gives off better and brighter light. You can wait for them to go on sale at CDN Tire or you can buy them for $10 or $12 at Walmart all the time. I am currently rearranging my workshop and when I'm done I plan on getting some more T8s. 2 for over the table saw and 2 for over the workbench.

[Bill Howatt]

I did my shop extension with 4' flourescents and cheapie fixtures from HD. My friend built a new shop and used the screw-in energy saver flourescent bulbs. I wish I had done the same. Cheaper and quieter.

Bill

[Michael in Port Alberni]

My shop is 20x35, split in half for a bench room and a machine room. On the machine side I have 5 8" 2 tube T8 fixtures on chain, and over the bench I have three hanging just above my head. Thes are about a 1/4" above my hair when it is standing straight up (as it does ever now ans then). These throw a wonderful shadowless light all about the place. Pretty bright and energy intensive. Yesterday I had a look at how my shop is lit 90% of the time when I am working.

A while ago I found a bunch of stanley clip lamps at the local liquidation world. I bought all they had (7) and a couple of those swing arm desk lamps from CTC. I have 4 of these pendant type lights and a swing arm in there on the machines I use the most, each with a 13 watt compact flourescent in it. Unless I am working to incredible detail, I never need to turn on the hanging tubes. Hanging T8 tubes = 350watts , the CF's used as task lighting on all the main work areas add up to 65 watts and I find the light bright enough and the shop much more pleasant to work in.

It's not just the type type of light but the fixture and placement as well.

Cheers

Michael Kampen

[J.P.Rap in Hamilton]

I have a smallish shop (about 20X20).
The actual working area is about 10 X 20 and as you can see in the pic, I have 3 8' lights evenly spaced. There is one more to the right just outside the pic.
I use a desk lamp type fixture at the lathe, drill press, bandsaw and over the workbench.

The closest light is right over my lathe. The furthest two are more or less on either side of my bench. The fixtures I used are old and likely ineficient but they were free and I needed lights. I have more than enough light in the work area.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid190/pe4412972b73dbd1109a73476ae4eb753/f1f0639e.jpg

Whatever you go with...Clean the bulbs regularly. It really makes a big difference.
J.P.

[Robin in Niagara]

I was in Shoppers Drug Mart waiting for a perscription and in the latest issue of Shop Notes is an article on shop lighting. There is more information on this forum but they do say than when hanging flourcent lights (on the ceiling) the fixture is mounted 1/3 the ceiling to workbench distance from the wall and spacing is 1 1/2 times that distance.
FWIW
Robin

[Les@Brownsville]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your responses. I ended up buying four 8 foot 4 lamp tandem strips with osram low power electronic ballast. There are a total of 16 - 32 watt T8/F032//850/xp/ECO 5k extended life bulbs.

The distributor said that mounting them to the ceiling lengthwise in two 16 foot rows would provide ample lighting.

I believe I got a good price as well. The 8 foot strips were $55. each and the bulbs were $3 each.

Les

[Robin]

How Many use Compact Flourescents?

Hoping to revive this thread and get feedback on the new CF's

I'm in the process of planning out the lighting needs of my garage (28' x 30' x 10' Walls) and previously have gone with 8' tubes, but am wondering with the proliferation of the CF lamps, if this isn't the way to go.

I'm thinking of the CF's enclosed in the plastic outer. Cause sooner or later they WILL get bumped.

I haven't done the calculations but am thinking that they are going to come in cheaper the decent 8' fixtures with electronic ballasts.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Robin

[Ken in Regina]

Robin,

If you can force yourself to buy something from Wal-Mart they have 4' two tube fluorescent shoplights for around $16.88. They are the newer T8 fixtures with electronic ballasts. They didn't have any tubes for them. I had to get those at Home Depot, but HD has a great selection. I use one cool white and one daylight tube in each fixture and that gives me a nice quality of light in the shop.

The only problem I found when I went to buy the ones for my shop was the spotty availability. Of the three Wal-Mart stores we have in town, two stores had one fixture each and the third store had a big stack of them. I've had one fixture die in the two years they've been up. For the price I'm okay with that. It's about what I expect from the junk Wal-Mart sells.

Depending on the size of your shop, you're going to have to put in a lot of individual fixtures for compact flourescents versus using 4' fluorescent shoplights.

...ken...

[kcjones]

Hi Robin
My shop is 26x30 and I have both CF and 4' F. They are on separate switches. I generally run the CF of which there are 4 unless I need more light for finishing or something like that. If I was to do it again I would put in all CF. The bulbs are are about the same cost ( I have the day light flourescent bulbs) and you don't have the problem of the tubes not coming on in the cold. You wont have to replace any ballasts and the fixtures would be cheaper to buy. Your power consumption would be lower so there for your spending less money.

[Robin]

Interesting Combination,

Daylight and Cool White... can't do that with CF's.

What size is your shop, and how many 4' dual do you use Ken?

Thanks,
Robin

[Robin]

Ken,

Do you have the Electronic Ballasts? I'm wondering if they are slow to start in the cold weather. Not that it_should_make much difference, I'll be keeping my garage @ 18C when I'm not in it and 20C when I'm playing.

I like the cost of the CF's, however I'm wonder if you get a better light "spread" with the 4' lamps?

Thanks,
Robin

[Ken in Regina]

Interesting Combination,

Daylight and Cool White... can't do that with CF's.

What size is your shop, and how many 4' dual do you use Ken?

Thanks,
Robin
My shop is 32 x 18. I have two rows of four dual shoplights. This will give you an idea. This was moving day.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/kganshirt/Shop/garage-moving-day01.jpg

...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

Ken,

Do you have the Electronic Ballasts? I'm wondering if they are slow to start in the cold weather. Not that it_should_make much difference, I'll be keeping my garage @ 18C when I'm not in it and 20C when I'm playing.

I like the cost of the CF's, however I'm wonder if you get a better light "spread" with the 4' lamps?

Thanks,
Robin
We installed them just before xmas when the shop was still unheated. They start right away. When it's cold they operate like compact fluorescents. They start a little dim and get up to full brightness within five minutes or less. I keep the shop heated to about 10C when I'm not in it and they come on at full brightness at that temp.

Compact fluorescents never come on at full brightness at any temperature. They always take a few minutes to get up to full brightness.

I don't see how the light from the shoplights can't be better spread with four foot length and reflectors above the tubes.

Remember to compare apples to apples for costing. I suspect if you do the math, the purchase price of fixtures and bulbs for enough CFs to provide the same light levels as the necessary number of inexpensive T8 shoplight fixtures and tubes you will find there isn't a lot of difference. And if you are producing the same light levels with either the CFs or T8 shoplights the operating costs should be pretty much identical.

...ken...

[Robin]

My shop is 32 x 18. I have two rows of four dual shoplights. This will give you an idea. This was moving day.
...ken...


The coverage looks good (hard to tell with the sunlight coming in the window).

Out of curiosity Ken, have you moved the lamps. I like the idea of the flexibility, but would it be easier to add task lighting rather than move the lamps?

For my 28' x 30' I'm thinking 3 rows of the 4' doubles for a total of 12 fixtures.

I'm planning on sheeting with OSB painted white and running conduit, so I have the flexibility to modify down the road if I really need to.

... Now do I have enough surface to run conduit, copper air lines, DC ducting, and mount the lights. :oops:

Oh yeah, don't forget the hatches for attic access (additonal wood storage). Probably should be in another thread, but does anyone use their unheated attic space for wood storage?

Thanks,
Robin

[dan]

i would again encourage the use of CF bulbs, they do a good job, save energy etc. my 11x20x10 shop is illuminated with 8 23W bulbs or whatever the wattage is, i have compared it to 2 100 watt bulbs and there is just no comparison i also stsrted out with 4 8' dual floresencent fixtures they stayed up about an hour just not enough light, it was a cold day and took forever to lighten up, get with the times CF are the way to go :D dan

[Ken in Regina]

Hi Dan,

I would respectfully suggest you get with the times yourself. :wink: You are comparing compact fluorescents to old technology .. incandescant bulbs and T12 fluorescents. By that comparison CFs look pretty good. But that's no longer the right comparison if you are going modern.

The current fluorescent tube technology is T8 with electronic ballasts operating at high frequencies. They start up right away at pretty much any reasonable temps and they don't flicker. Each 4' tube is 32 watts, quite a bit less than the old T12 tubes. CFs are the same technology shrunk down to fit into a regular light socket. If you use enough of either one you should get good economical lighting in your shop.


Robin,

I have not moved any of my lights yet. But I reserve the right to do so in future. :p

I still don't like my machine layout and one of these days there is going to be a major reorganization. As soon as I can figure out how I want it. What is more likely is that I will simply add a little more general lighting. I still have half the plugs on the ceiling available. Since they are split receptacles and the lights are on their own double breaker, I've still got lots of breaker capacity up there.

No matter how much general lighting you have, task lighting is always a good idea for some operations. My bandsaw came with a light on a flexible stalk. My drill press has a light in the bottom of the main housing. I use those lights every time I use the machines. When I'm finishing it's not unusual to have some additional task lighting set up. Even if I had more general lighting I would probably use task lighting for most of the things I use it for now. The eyes ain't what they once was. :shock:

If you haven't already seen the threads on painting OSB do yourself a favor and get some really good primer that is specifically designed for sealing and hiding. Killz is good if you can stand oil-based smells. Zinsser makes a good oil-based one and also a shellac-based sealer/primer. I used the Zinsser shellac-based primer. It doesn't stink for as long as the oil-based. It goes on way thinner so I think it's a little easier to work into the nooks and crannies of the OSB. My brother used Killz and he's really happy with the results. After the primer I used one of those white ceiling paints that goes on colored and dries white (used it for everything .. ceiling and walls). That sure made it easier to see where I had already painted.

...ken...

[tpwade]

Personally, I use both. My workshop already had some standard sockets (which I put CF in) but need more light so I added tubes. With tubes, it's easy to get lots of nice diffuse light in the workshop, and requires minimal wiring. The fixtures are generally easy to install, if the tube dies, replace the tube, if the ballast dies, replace the ballast. With CF you have to replace both (possibly more waste), but CF are nicer for giving you a spotlight or task light, and they fit in existing sockets.

Efficiency wise it's about a tie, though CF bulbs might be VERY slightly less efficient than tubes (at least according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp). Also it appears T8 tubes are more efficient than T12 tubes.

So I would say it doesn't really make sense to argue whether CF are better than tubes. In the long run, the cost difference is negligible, and efficiency wise they are pretty much the same. They are both definitely better and cheaper long term than incandescent. Get whatever works for you.

[Pawistik]

Interesting Combination,

Daylight and Cool White... can't do that with CF's.

Sure you can. CFs come in at least the cool white and daylight versions, maybe others. I have a couple of two-bulb fixtures in my garage/shop and have both types of CF bulbs in them. I also was able to take advantage of the lower power rating of a CF put in larger bulbs than I could have if using the incandescent bulbs that were originally in there. The only problem is that CFs get much more expensive when you stray from the ubiquitous 13W bulb.

Note that this is all temporary until I can install my "real" lighting. I was going to go with two 8' x 2 tube fixtures on each side, plus one more across the end, for a total of 10 8' bulbs in a 2-car garage.

Cheers,
Bryan

[Robin]

The current fluorescent tube technology is T8 with electronic ballasts operating at high frequencies. They start up right away at pretty much any reasonable temps and they don't flicker. Each 4' tube is 32 watts, quite a bit less than the old T12 tubes. CFs are the same technology shrunk down to fit into a regular light socket. If you use enough of either one you should get good economical lighting in your shop.


I guess this is what it comes down to, what works best for each application. I like the idea of the 4' flourescents because you have 2 x 4' strips of light with a painted reflector behind them compared to (I'm guessing) a 12" glass tube wound up. CF work well and I use them in each fixture in my house, but I'm thinking tubes will give better light distribution, more light down towards the floor where I am, rather than spread omnidirectionally as CF's would do.


Robin,

I have not moved any of my lights yet. But I reserve the right to do so in future. :p

I still don't like my machine layout and one of these days there is going to be a major reorganization. As soon as I can figure out how I want it. What is more likely is that I will simply add a little more general lighting. I still have half the plugs on the ceiling available. Since they are split receptacles and the lights are on their own double breaker, I've still got lots of breaker capacity up there.

No matter how much general lighting you have, task lighting is always a good idea for some operations. My bandsaw came with a light on a flexible stalk. My drill press has a light in the bottom of the main housing. I use those lights every time I use the machines. When I'm finishing it's not unusual to have some additional task lighting set up. Even if I had more general lighting I would probably use task lighting for most of the things I use it for now. The eyes ain't what they once was. :shock:


I agree, flexibility is the key.... especially as we age :oops:



If you haven't already seen the threads on painting OSB do yourself a favor and get some really good primer that is specifically designed for sealing and hiding. Killz is good if you can stand oil-based smells. Zinsser makes a good oil-based one and also a shellac-based sealer/primer. I used the Zinsser shellac-based primer. It doesn't stink for as long as the oil-based. It goes on way thinner so I think it's a little easier to work into the nooks and crannies of the OSB. My brother used Killz and he's really happy with the results. After the primer I used one of those white ceiling paints that goes on colored and dries white (used it for everything .. ceiling and walls). That sure made it easier to see where I had already painted.

...ken...


Agreed with the primer, however what about a semi-gloss for the final coat? Or is there much difference between a flat (ceiling paint) finish and semi-gloss? Or am I going to be starting another heated debate :mrgreen:

[Robin]

Sure you can. CFs come in at least the cool white and daylight versions, maybe others. I have a couple of two-bulb fixtures in my garage/shop and have both types of CF bulbs in them.

Cheers,
Bryan

Good Point, 2 bulb fixtures would allow you to 'blend' the light

Robin

[big mac]

Hey guys---you can also purchase "light box" flourecents and put a few in your shop. These are bulbs used in light therapy for treatment of depression during the winter when there is a lack of sunlight. When I had a basement shop and spent days on end without going outside you get a "little" irritable. My GP suggested it---did some reading and what the hell----for 35.00 or so I replaced the bulbs------made a huge difference.

These bulbs are readily available from the larger electrical supply people---not HD---Wholesalers or suppliers to the trade.

[Ken in Regina]

Agreed with the primer, however what about a semi-gloss for the final coat? Or is there much difference between a flat (ceiling paint) finish and semi-gloss? Or am I going to be starting another heated debate :mrgreen:
I really can't say. I just wanted "white" on everything to keep it from eating up the light. I also didn't want something that would give any glare. So for me it came down to the fact that HD had the ceiling paint on at a good price at the time and the colour changing feature just made it so simple to apply.

...ken...

[Backflush]

When I built my shop in the basement I was thinking about resale, so I put in 12 pot lights in the ceiling with florescent reflector bulbs. I can say they are very bright and I'm quite pleased with them

[Robin]

I wonder what color temperature they are? I am assuming of course that would be the primary difference.

Ken, Maybe they are between CW & Daylight? :rolleyes:
Something similar to what you have up right now?

Robin

[big mac]

I'm not sure what the colour range would be--but according to the medical threads they are as close to natural sunlight as you can get---I should say I did not put them in my finishing area---simply because I was not sure; but the finish area used the same bulbs that high end clothing stores used---also got them at supply houses.

[Ken in Regina]

I don't remember the numbers offhand. When I was planning my shop I did some research on the colour "temperatures" to get the best colour rendering when finishing. That's natural daylight, of course. Somehow I came up with the combination of the colour temperature for cool white and daylight together because of the different colour ranges (blues versus reds) that they work best with.

I've never seen the colour temps for the anti-SAD bulbs. Never seen the tubes, actually. :confused:

...ken...

[big mac]

I don't remember the numbers offhand. When I was planning my shop I did some research on the colour "temperatures" to get the best colour rendering when finishing. That's natural daylight, of course. Somehow I came up with the combination of the colour temperature for cool white and daylight together because of the different colour ranges (blues versus reds) that they work best with.

I've never seen the colour temps for the anti-SAD bulbs. Never seen the tubes, actually. :confused:

...ken...


Sorry Ken---I'll get the number off the bulbs for you---don't know what I was thinking---maybe I wasn't :D

[big mac]

Hi Ken---sorry for the delay--internet dumped again;

Bulbs are manufactured by Philips
F40T12/50
5000K Ultralume
40 Watts
Alto Collection
Two symbols one---circle with E inside
2nd--circle with HG inside

Hope this helps :)

[Ken in Regina]

Thanks Mac.

I thought that 5000K looked familiar so I did some checking.

Cool White is 4100K.
Bright White is 5000K.
Daylight is 6500K.

Real daylight on a typical day is calculated to be around 5770 Kelvin.

When I did my original research I found some indication that the combination of the Daylight and Cool White tubes together produce good coverage in the middle and a little more spread either direction on the temperature scale. It seemed to make sense to me so that's what I went with. I can't tell any difference when I hold a piece under the lights or take it into the sunlight. But I'm a guy so I can't see the really subtle colour differences anyway.

Next time I have to buy some tubes, perhaps I'll get some of the Bright White and see how they compare.

...ken...