Getting a HVLP system... need advice

[mreza]

I am thinking of getting a HVLP system, mostly to use for applying finish/stain to wood (but occasionally use for paint if needed).
I should say up front that I have zero experience with spray system and would like to get something that won't need to upgrade.
I don't have a spray booth either, so mostly applying it in a garage and I know I should get some good ventilation. I should
only use waterbased finishes.

I have done some research and it appears that Fuji products are good and you can get an excellent (pro like) finish without breaking the bank.

Have a bunch of questions for those more experienced people here:

1- A general question is about the amount of sanding needed between different layers of finish. Is the procedure the same with spray system or will it reduce the amount of sanding needed between different applications of finish, perhaps because you can get a more even finish each time? I hate sanding!

2- is the MM4 series a good option? Is the upgrade to Q4 worth it? I understand it's the same system with a noise reduction layer added.

3- Should I get a gravity fed gun instead of the standard one?

4- What are the applications/differences/uses of a whipping hose and a flex hose?

5- What would be a good starting package (the system, hoses, niddles, cups, etc)?

What should I be asking that I didn't ask?

comments/suggestions are welcome.

[StephenL]

Funny you should ask. I was just browsing Youtube yesterday looking for info on a gravity feed sprayer for my Fuju system. Here is a sample of what I found. Lots of good stuff on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...1203.0j8j1.9.0.

[Glenn at Raven]

I have been very pleased with my Earlex 5500 HVLP unit. It is available at Home Hardware, and at some saving over a Fuji system.

Glenn

[darius]

1. I never sand between coats when using a sprayer, and only light wet sanding of the final coat. The exception would be gran rasing stains (like wb stains) but I use only NGR. When you apply NGR stains they dry almost immediately. The same with wb topcoats which, at about 20C will be dry to touch within 20 to 40 minutes depending on the amount of material sprayed. I keep the coats skinny but more numerous. That way I virtually eliminate the risk of runs. With wb finish you will likely want to wait until one coat is dry before shooting another one, otherwise you run the risk of purple hue.

2. Plenty good. If it's just your ears then a set of earmuffs would be cheaper. If it's about the neighbors/family you it's your call. The noise level of these is comparable to what an average household vacuum cleaner produces.

3. Gravity is smaller which may be actually better. I never used an entire quart for any project in one spraying session. Regardless, I'm sure you will eventually have both since you mention painting too. I only have cup (1quart).

5. for most fine finishing #3 and #4 will be all you need.

[mreza]

Thanks to all for the comments.

Darius: I watched a few videos of the MM4, Super 4, and Q4 and the noise level is not all that different (perhaps 20%-30% less).

As for sanding, that's different from what I hear from others. Some say you still need to sand in between layers (not necessarily between every two consecutive).
I suppose it depends on the type of finish.

Do you have the MM4? happy with it?

[darius]

I don't have MM4 yet, for now still using my cheap Harbor Freight HVLP, but the money is almost there and I will be sneaking upon the Fuji in about a paycheck or two.

As for the sanding, your mileage can surely vary. The main reasons to sand between coats:

1. even out brush marks which is N/A for spraying
2. scuff off the dust particles settling on the finish, N/A for WB thin finishes as they dry very fast and there is no time for them to stick to the surface especially if the spraying vertically and the temp is 20C or above
3. scuff the finish to give it some teeth to bite the next layer, N/A for WB finishes if the subsequent layer is applied within 24 hrs.

Spraying oil based top coats will likely nullify all of the above as the finish takes longer to get dry to the touch.

I always spray very thin layers based on the advice I came across somewhere - 1 coat of brushed finish = 3 coats of sprayed finish. One drawback of WB that I experiences is the water sanding of the final coat. It has to be cured, which for me was over 36 hrs using Varathane WB finishes. If you try to water sand too soon the job may get wrecked as the water will not act as a lubricant yet, but rather as a solvent. Happened to me.

[Paul O in Paris]

If you have a compressor you can get a far superior spray system for a lot less $$$ than a turbine. If no compressor, then my advice is to research the turbines for what you want them to do and then compare the price to a compressor system.
My experience is that the turbine itself doesn't matter, they are all basically vacuum cleaner motors despite what the ad hype claims.
The gun is the most important thing, and depending on what you want it to do, you need to consider how many "extras" you will need.
Personally, I would never buy a spray gun that doesn't have both adjustable fluid and air controls. I would follow that by wanting a set of interchangeable needles/nozzles and (in some models) air caps so I could spray different viscosity fluids. I would also want the ability to spray vertically and horizontally by simply changing the orientation of part of the air cap. It's also nice to have the capability to change the width of the fan, especially if you can actually change the shape of the fan to a cone, which with a drop in air pressure will allow you to get into corners in cabinets (if you don't prefinish before assembly).
The type of gun (gravity/siphon etc) should be determined by what you want to spray. Some turbines allow you to run a small pressure pot which in turn allows you to have a much smaller, lighter gun in your hand which increases your flexibility.
As for sanding between finishes, you really aren't "sanding", just scuffing. You only "sand" if you are trying to level out a surface, eg after multiple coats of sanding sealer or grain filler. Personally, I scuff between every coat, regardless of the type of finish I am using. It's just sound practice and IMO gives the best results.
I really don't have any recommendations for brand as I have no experience with a sufficient variety to offer a meaningful comparison. I have only ever used one turbine system in my life, it's at least 20yrs old and now sprays stains, dyes, toners and washcoats.
Finally, I would encourage you to go to the folks that sell these things and pick one up, preferably full of liquid, to see if the gun feels comfortable to your wrist/hand.
Good luck..............Paul

[Bob just past Ayr]

I have the Fuji Q4 and am very pleased with it. I do not use water based products so have no comment there other than latex paint that was designed for brush or roller and that is what I should have used.
I would definitely recommend the whip hose becacause the standard hose is not flexable enough.
I felt the people at Fuji were very helpful.

[mreza]

thanks again for comments.

If you have a compressor you can get a far superior spray system for a lot less $$$ than a turbine. If no compressor, then my advice is to research the turbines for what you want them to do and then compare the price to a compressor system.

I don't have a "big enough" compresor. So I guess unless I want to invest to buy a big one (what cfm?) that's not going to be very cheap.
As I said I don't know much about finishes. I'm mostly applying finishes on furniture projects (solid wood). So far I have used wipe-on poly and shellac, and some water-based finishes (all applied by hand). I'd like to use other options.such as laquer. I don't expect to use it for spraying paint but it'd be a bonus if I could.
What are my options if I had a larger compressor?

My experience is that the turbine itself doesn't matter, they are all basically vacuum cleaner motors despite what the ad hype claims.
The gun is the most important thing, and depending on what you want it to do, you need to consider how many "extras" you will need.
Personally, I would never buy a spray gun that doesn't have both adjustable fluid and air controls. I would follow that by wanting a set of interchangeable needles/nozzles and (in some models) air caps so I could spray different viscosity fluids. I would also want the ability to spray vertically and horizontally by simply changing the orientation of part of the air cap. It's also nice to have the capability to change the width of the fan, especially if you can actually change the shape of the fan to a cone, which with a drop in air pressure will allow you to get into corners in cabinets (if you don't prefinish before assembly).

Are the guns that come with these HVLP systems (like Fuji MM4 series) fall into that category that you describe?

The type of gun (gravity/siphon etc) should be determined by what you want to spray. Some turbines allow you to run a small pressure pot which in turn allows you to have a much smaller, lighter gun in your hand which increases your flexibility.
As for sanding between finishes, you really aren't "sanding", just scuffing. You only "sand" if you are trying to level out a surface, eg after multiple coats of sanding sealer or grain filler. Personally, I scuff between every coat, regardless of the type of finish I am using. It's just sound practice and IMO gives the best results.
I really don't have any recommendations for brand as I have no experience with a sufficient variety to offer a meaningful comparison. I have only ever used one turbine system in my life, it's at least 20yrs old and now sprays stains, dyes, toners and washcoats.
Finally, I would encourage you to go to the folks that sell these things and pick one up, preferably full of liquid, to see if the gun feels comfortable to your wrist/hand.
Good luck..............Paul

Is there a specific system/package that you'd recommend for a hobby use other than these turbine systems? Assuming it will be used to finish furniture and perhaps kitchen cabinets and things alike?

thanks agian.

[darius]

I used compressor based spraying years ago and I was impressed at the time (after they taught me how to properly use it). I sprayed cars mostly, but also some woodwork.

I only heard about HVLP about 3 years ago and so I gave it a try. Even though my HVLP cost me as much as a gallon of good topcoat finish I'm sold and I'm not going back to compressor/tank spraying.

The negatives compressor/tank when compared to HVLP:

- you need a rather potent motor, think 220 for spraying, even with some HVLP guns, otherwise the gun will be running out of breath
- more noise than HVLP turbine
- need to periodically bleed water from the tank, or it will mess your finish, especially oil or alcohol based finishes
- assign additional space in your workshop to actually place the compressor tank. For me, a one car garage warrior, that alone is a no go.

The HVLP system you're looking at come with very good guns and those guns allow for great versatility when it comes to a spray pattern. Perhaps someone closer to you has an HVLP and they would be kind enough to demo the thing for you.

[italrowe]

I would agree with ‘Paul O in Paris’, if you have a compressor then buying a gun would suffice. You don’t need a ‘big’ compressor to get good quality results, but you do need the right product(s). I have a 'smaller' type of compressor (a 20 gallon Campbell Hausfeld) and I get good results with my setup.

My main gun is an Eastwood Concours Gun (http://www.eastwood.com/ew-concours-paint-gun-w-1-2-tip.html). It is meant for the auto industry but works great for WB finishes. It was designed for use with small compressors, as it only requires 4 cfm and has multiple tips for spraying different materials. I utilize the 3M PPS adapters (http://www.woodessence.com/3M-Paint-Preparation-System-C47.aspx) and I almost entirely spray WB lacquer (Target Coatings). I have finished several large table tops and have not had any CFM issues. I also have a cheap Grizzly (H7669) with multiple tips and this gun works pretty good, given the price. With this gun, I can do most pieces, but I have had issues with my compressor when spraying larger pieces of furniture.

Darius mentioned that water is an issue with compressors and it can be, but I always use a cheap disposable inline filter when spraying (
http://www.woodessence.com/Whirlwind-Inline-Air-Filter-P142C31.aspx
), and I have only drained my compressor twice in 5 yrs.

I hope that helps

[Teak]

Excellent topic. What do you guys use for a spray booth? Up here in Edmonton it is only warm four months of the year to be spraying outside. How do you control overspray related issues, fumes, personal protection etc? I am in the same boat so would be intersted in the collective wisdom.

[mreza]

Excellent topic. What do you guys use for a spray booth? Up here in Edmonton it is only warm four months of the year to be spraying outside. How do you control overspray related issues, fumes, personal protection etc? I am in the same boat so would be intersted in the collective wisdom.

So it's at least 3 of us folks here in Edmonton who is considering these options.

It appears Wood Essence has started carrying Apollo turbines. More options to look into...

[Peter in Maple Ridge]

I would agree with ‘Paul O in Paris’, if you have a compressor then buying a gun would suffice. You don’t need a ‘big’ compressor to get good quality results, but you do need the right product(s). I have a 'smaller' type of compressor (a 20 gallon Campbell Hausfeld) and I get good results with my setup.

My main gun is an Eastwood Concours Gun (http://www.eastwood.com/ew-concours-...w-1-2-tip.html). It is meant for the auto industry but works great for WB finishes. It was designed for use with small compressors, as it only requires 4 cfm and has multiple tips for spraying different materials. I utilize the 3M PPS adapters (http://www.woodessence.com/3M-Paint-...ystem-C47.aspx) and I almost entirely spray WB lacquer (Target Coatings). I have finished several large table tops and have not had any CFM issues. I also have a cheap Grizzly (H7669) with multiple tips and this gun works pretty good, given the price. With this gun, I can do most pieces, but I have had issues with my compressor when spraying larger pieces of furniture.

Darius mentioned that water is an issue with compressors and it can be, but I always use a cheap disposable inline filter when spraying (
http://www.woodessence.com/Whirlwind...r-P142C31.aspx
), and I have only drained my compressor twice in 5 yrs.

I hope that helps

I wish I had know this before buying my fuji. Don't get me wrong, I love my fuji but if I can get the same results for half the cost it would have been a serious contender. I only have a double hot dog compressor that would have worked fine with that gun.

I guess I didn't ask the right questions.

[Windsor]

Hi Guys,
Here's what I picked up when reviewing HVLP systems for CWW's Feb/Mar issue:

1. I think sanding's been covered here. Fresh coats of lacquers & shellac will burn into the previous layers so the only reason to sand would be to get rid of dust or runs/sags. Basically, follow the manufacturer's instructions.

2.The Fuji system performed very well, excellent fit & finish, but I would upgrade to the Q series. The standard model really is quite loud. Not terrible, but I'd seriously consider hearing protection if I were going to be using it for a long time. I think the Q is probably worth the money.

3. The Fuji's swivel side fitting for their gravity cup is really nice – it means you can almost always have the cup in an upright position even when spraying at weird angles, such as when doing a cabinet interior.

This becomes moot, however, if you get the 3M PPS conversion. This replaces the standard pressure cup with a molded plastic one that holds a heavy-duty "baggie," complete with a filter, that contain the finish. (Italrowe has posted a link (above) to the system at Wood Essence's web site.) The cup is pressurized which compresses the baggie and forces the finish out through the gun. With this setup you can spray at any angle, including upside down. Cleanup is a snap: you can either store finish in the baggie/cup for a short period, or rinse out the baggie for re-use. The cup stays clean.

4. I'd suggest you get a whip if one is offered. The lighter weight & better flexibility make a huge difference. The extra length also means the pressurized air is a bit cooler when it reaches the gun. This can be an issue with shellacs & lacquers, not so much with WB.

5. A starting package will depend quite a bit on what you'll be spraying and how often you'll use the system. For applying "finish/stain to wood" you'll want a 1.2/1.3mm needle with matching cup. You could probably go as small as a 1.0mm if you watch your viscosity and thin as necessary. For paint you'll want to go to at least a 2.0mm needle/nozzle set and if it's gooey stuff like latex you'll almost certainly have to thin with water and a retarder such as DynaFlo, Floetrol or Target Coatings' SA5. The spray unit's instructions should have a table for use with a viscosity cup. Basically you time how long it takes the finish to flow through the cup & then dilute as required so it'll spray.

My subjective observations after using the units are covered in the CWW article so I won't repeat all that here. Have a look at it. With any of the units a bit of practice is in order. Get some cardboard to spray onto and get a feel for how the unit works. Increase & decrease the amount of fluid, then play with the air pressure. See what combination works best with various viscosities. Also adjust the fan pattern of the spray; doing this also changes the volume of finish being sprayed, so it will probably also require adjusting the air pressure. (I know that this isn't very helpful pre-purchase. You can't just walk into a supplier's store and start spraying paint all over the place.)

If you're considering going the route of using a HVLP gun with a standard compressor, don't think you're going to get adequate performance out of a 6-gal. Porter-Cable pancake. (I've tried. It sucks as much as it sprays.) You'll need lots of air volume and a good air filter in your line. It's a nice feature of using the turbine units that they provide clean, warm air to the gun.

A note re Rusty's comment about airless: If you have a house to paint, go airless. Airless is what professional crews use when they paint acreage such as aircraft hangars and factories. They lay down a ton of paint, fast. HVLP on the other hand, is slow like tortoise. Does a great job but takes quite a while to get it done. Also you need to use caution. Airless is EXTREMELY high pressure.

As for the units reviewed, all worked fine. The Wagner is great for painting fences & outdoor furniture; does a super job for the price. The Earlex 5500 was the real sleeper. It looks sort of gimmicky but it performed on a level very close to the more expensive units. It does a better-than-adequate job for a very reasonable price. The Fuji Mini-Mite has all the control you'll need to spray almost any finish. Fit & finish are very good. I'd upgrade to the "Q" version as it's a bit loud. Here you'll have to ask yourself, "Am I going to spray enough to justify spending $250 more for the Fuji instead of the Earlex?" Both are good; the Fuji's more versatile and that could be a game winner at some point down the road.

Edmonton-based Lemmer has three models, with 2-, 3- and 4-stage turbines, the difference being that with more power you can spray faster or spray thicker coatings. This is a professional system with excellent fit & finish. The T55Q (2-stage) system is less expensive than the Fuji MM. The Lemmer turbine is QUIET. (I bought the Lemmer T90Q and the extremely low noise was a deciding factor in the purchase. The T75Q & T90Q both have models with turbine speed controls which makes them even quieter.) Lemmer uses the 3M PPS system and also includes a small 250-ml paint cup for detail work where a larger cup would be awkward.

Apollo Sprayers are the Rolls-Royces of the HVLP systems targeted at the home buyer. They have all the bells & whistles – variable speed on some models, automatic speed control, LED pressure indicator, LED warnings for filter blockage, etc. The finish on all parts is impeccable and the "feel" of the gun was probably the best of any tested. Excellent customer support. If you've got deep pockets, give these folks a call.

But the guys in Edmonton are worth a call . . . www.lemmer.com . . . if you're feeling a bit nationalistic

[mreza]

Thanks to all for the comments, very educating.

Bill: is it fair to assume (based on your tests) that Apollo is better than equivalent models of Fuji? I'd like to get something that I won't regret 10 years down the road.
Plus, if I do use it to do some finishing for the (to-be-built) house then it's easy to justify the price difference.
I'll give the Wood Essence a call to get some info about Apollo.

How do you compare Lemmer turbines with the above two?
For a budget of around $1k (for starter package) which would be the best value?

[Bryan @ Woodstock]

If my cheapo plastic gun Wagner HVLP dies, I will get an Earlex to replace it. I had an older Fuji Q3 but it's siphon gun needs a lot of air , making too much overspray and noise, IMHO. I like to see a pressure tube to the cup to push material to the gun. I use the Wagner for smaller jobs and get out the big gun, the air assist airless Kremlin for large jobs.

[Brian @ Muir]

I started out like a couple of other guys spraying cars having taken a course at a local community college. At that time I bought a Devilbis sipon feed gun and when I started spraying lacquers I found that gun and cap worked equally as well with lacquers. With this gun I had to thin the lacquers to get good coverage. There is a lot of overspray ( transfer efficiency ) with this type of system but it did lay down a nice finish. I then went with a Graco HVLP unit that uses a pressure pot and a small onboard compressor inside the fan unit. With a pressure pot I could spray lacquers without thinners. A giant step forward and the fact that you are holding just the gun in your hand enabling you to spray in any direction not having to worry about lacquer dripping from the cup. A cup full of lacquer becomes quite heavy when spraying a lot of lacquer. For the last 4 years I have been using a Kremlin 10-14 air assist. It is an excellent system and I spray lacquer right out of the 5 gallon pail.
One thing I would point out when spraying from a gallon or 5 gallon pail it is important that you have an agitator for your pail to keep the lacquer well mixed. These agitators are a bit on the expensive side. I paid $450 for one designed for 5 gallon pains. These are basically a lid with a air motor sitting on top with a shaft with a paddle sticking into the lacquer. They require very little air. I since discovered that Grizzly sell a pressure pot with a built in air driven agitator for about half of what I paid for just my agitator. I have also looked at the 3m system with the disposable cup and this would be great for small jobs.

It is important to find someone that can repair your equipment but I would put a higher priority on a finish supplier than can solve your finishing problems. A perfect situation would be a supplier that can repair your equipment and also sells finishing supplies.I have that in WES Suppliers in Delhi. They sell both Kremlin and Graco systems alomg with being a full service ML Campbell dealer. They have saved my bacon more than once. In this area both WES and McFaddens hold one day seminars on finishes and spraying lacquers. A excellent course for someone just starting out or those of us than may have developed a few bad habits. I would pay particular attention to those that spray finishes for a living and there is a couple on this forum. As Paul mentioned Woodweb is probably the best forum by far for solutions to finishing problems.
Good luck with your journey.

Brian

[Paul O in Paris]

For a budget of around $1k (for starter package) which would be the best value?

I'm not trying to dissuade you from a turbine system as they have definite advantages for some users, but for that budget you could get a pretty good compressor and a nice spray gun, and maybe have change left over for an "el cheapo" gun for stains/dyes etc.
Paul

[mreza]

I am getting close to buying a system (within the next month).

The idea of a large compressor isn't appealing to me at this stage, main reason I'd like to have portability. Plus, I don't see the need to use a large compressor for anything else.
So I'm still on the HVLP turbine systems. Found out about a couple of other brands/systems. So the options I'm looking at are:

- Fuji MM4 (which is a 4 stage turbine)
- Apollo 1035 (which is a 4-stage turbine)
- Graco FinishPro 9.5 which is a 5-stage turbine: http://www.graco.com/us/en/products/...-sprayers.html
- Titan Canspray 105 (which is a 5-stage turbine); Canspray 95 model is a 4-stage and 115 is a 6-stage
http://www.titantool.com/portal/us_c...,,,352512.html

Prices increase in this order too (well Graco 9.5 and Titan 105 are about the same). There is also Lemmer systems.
I am thinking Fuji MM4 would be enough for me (which I can get for under $900 with two tips).
Is there any compelling reasons to go with a 5-stage (or even 6)? I cannot find much info/review about Graco or Titan systems.

Am I making this more complicated than it is? Should I just buy one and start using it?