Wadkin Bursgreen BGP panel saw

[wryanddry]

Just picked up a Wadkin Bursgreen BGP table saw at auction $75.00. It was previously in a high school in Calgary so it has seen some extraordinary abuse, evidence of the spinning blade hitting the sliding table (kids are animals!) however also very well maintained: graphite lube on the trunnion, smooth rise and tilt operation and no play in these adjustments. Just completed a full tear down and rebuild cleaning and polishing all the cast iron and finishing with Top Coat, replacing the graphite with LPS force 842. Everything square and set up, which took freakin' hours! There are a couple of items missing, there should be a rip fence to the right of the blade mounted on a round bar fixed to the front of the fixed cast iron bed - no bar or fence, looking to replace this with a uni fence as this is the closest to to the original design, the alternative is to order parts from the UK but I heard that the parts are expensive and shipping will be costly for these heavy items! Riving knife also absent. Only thing left to do is find a replacement for the 5 hp 3 phase motor. I have a lead on a 5 hp single phase for $100 which is way better than the $600 for a new Baldor 3 hp single phase but means that I have to upgrade my breaker and twist locks. Looking forward to making my first cut on this beast and putting it through its paces! Since buying the saw I have researched it and heard some good things, the saw is a monster at 2800lbs and has acres of cast iron.

First shot is of the damage to the slider
Second shot shows the inner rail pushed forward and the slider locked like a traditional cabinet saw
Third shot shows the slider all the way forward
Fourth shot shows the slider all the way back
Fifth shot shows the slider centered

[Brian @ Muir]

Congrats, that is one heck of a saw. The damage to the slider is something that I have observed on a lot of the sliders out there and always wonder how someone could be so careless. Having owned a slider for a few years I now know how it can happen. Personally, I will finish tightening the arbor nut and let the phone go to voice mail. A lot of the European sliders have the round bar for the fence that would give you the appearance of being the original. My SCM has it and I am sure a lot of the others.
Congrats again.

Brian

PS.. It would be a shame to have a saw that size with just a 3 hp motor. Like having a Corvette with a 6 cyl engine. It just doesn't sound right.

Brian

[J. Vibert]

Nice grab...

I completely agree with Brian that the 5hp would be the way to go. What's the original operating voltage of the saw...? I'd would assume 600v but you never know. If it's 220/480v you do have the option of running 220v single phase to the saw and using a VFD to get your third phase. Bonus there is a soft start and controlled deceleration/braking. That's not everyone's cup of tea, but personally I'm not a fan of cheap single phase motors.

[mikeddd]

Very sweet saw at a great price, welcome to the forum.

For the missing parts one of the members here Jgarrett Forsberg has done some beautiful restorations on different Wadkin equipment, he may be able to help you out try sending him a PM.

[mreza]

wow, for $75?! and that's a beast. Congrat's and enjoy it.

[michaely]

Very nice rebuild.

$100 for a 5 hp single phase motor would be wonderful.

But if that falls thru, consider getting a phase converter (or whatever it's called) to use the 3 phase 5 hp you have.
There was a thread on this site within the several weeks ago on doing this and the cost being less than a couple of hundred.... I understand there are a number of advantages to getting the facility to use 3 phase motors, one them being that any future used 3 phase machinery buys (and they are cheaper than used machines with single phase motors) could be accommodated with motors changes.

Welcome.

michael

[wryanddry]

Hi,
Yeah the VFD is looking like a more viable option as the motor on the Wadkin is a 230/460v 12.8/6.4A. I already have a 220v sub panel in the garage run in 10 gauge wire from the main panel with a 15A breaker for my 220v jointer and old (gone) 220v table saw. Keeping the existing motor means I don't have to source new pulleys etc. Also if I went with a 1 phase 5hp motor I would also have to switch the 15A breaker for a 30A model and switch my 15A twistlocks and receptacle for 30A versions which will run me approx $100. That is why I was looking as a 3hp 1 phase to avoid that lot. I did look at phase converters initially but was put off as the research I did suggested rotary converters expensive and inefficient, static convrters not suited to the application - heavy motor loads can destroy the converter and motor, and VFD's harder on older motors not designed for digital control - something to do with thinner insulation on the windings - Also VFD's can generate electrical noise effecting electronic devices like TV's etc. Being electrically inept the easiest solution appeared to be the 3hp 1 phase replacement motor and new pulleys but a new motor is expensive in the $300 - $600 range. The 5HP 1 phase motor i found turned out to be ODP not TEFC and compressor duty rated. Any info /advice on the correct make and model of VFD would be appreciated. I am itching to spin the blade and make that first cut!

[Brian @ Muir]

Hi,
I did look at phase converters initially but was put off as the research I did suggested rotary converters expensive and inefficient, static convrters not suited to the application - heavy motor loads can destroy the converter and motor, and VFD's harder on older motors not designed for digital control

I have never used VFD's but do have experience with Rotary Phase converters. Most of my machines are 3 phase and I run them with Rotary phase converters that I purchased from American Rotary/Gentec. My biggest problem initially was my friend who is an industrial electrician,he claimed as you stated they are inefficient and the one I bought would not work as the voltage on the 3rd leg would be real low. He eventually hooked it up and my voltage, after being run through a 220 to 600 volt transformer was within several volts, on all three legs, of 600 volts. It has been running almost everyday for the past 8 years. I run an 18 hp widebelt on phase converters and never a hiccup. Widebelts have a heavy draw on start up and when I added it several years ago I added a second 20 hp phase converter to handle the start up draw. Both of my converters run off 60 amp breakers in my main panel. I agree that the static phase converters are not really suited for continuous use and you loose about 1/3 of your rated motor HP. My slider runs a 9 hp motor and the DC is 5 hp and both run from the same 20 hp phase converter.
If you go to Woodweb you will find a fair number of guys that have small commercial shops that run Rotary phase converters and their experience is similiar to mine. It was a result of info from them that I decided to give it a try. A 20 hp from American Rotary is around $1200.

I suspect a lot of the negtive comments about phase converters came about as both static and rotary were considered in the same boat and also some guys made their own and had limited success like a lot of things we try to conger up.

Brian

[dmorgan]

Could you possibly send me a photo of the riving knife mounting plate the one that allows the riving knife to raise and lower with the blade? Someone removed it off of the saw at the school I work at, and I wish to fabricate one.

[jgarrett forsberg]

The older panel saws like the BGP and BGS were only 3HP. Later SP12, SP130s and the like were similarly only about 4HP with a much smaller number of PanelMaster (CP) saws being supplied with motors as big as 10HP If it were me i would run it with a temco FM 50 VFD with 10.5 amps out put. this will give you about 4 hp from your motor and the temco will just trip out. you still need to change the breaker as 3 phase power is 1.743 amps in single phase convertion.A VFD is so easy to wire a monkey could do it.


this is what you need
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it...=2&category=32



Really a panel saw will be able to do a full rip of an 8ft sheet of MDF/ply. That means you'll need a work space around 20ft long and 12 to 16ft wide with no other machinery in there just to use the thing. The question then becomes "is my garage big enough to hold 3 or 4 cars". If as I suspect it's a dimension saw (like a PP or PK) it's a lot smaller panel saw or 1/2 panel saw, but still a big bit of kit. Either way dimension saw, half-panel or panel its a nice saw.

A riving knife is attached to the rise and fall mechanism on the trunion (the bit which allows the blade to tilt) in such a way that it's height and anlgel of tilt are automatically the same as the blade. A riving knife is also normally positioned no more than 3 or 4mm behind the blade, frequently closer. This means in effect that the rise and fall mechanism for the blade is almost always a true vertical rise and fall.


At some point wadkin went from a Splitters attached to the rear of the saw bench or the trunion in some instances. This means that not all splitters can tilt with the blade (on some machines tilting is effected manually) and splitters are also not normally adjustable for height of cut. Because of this, splitters tend to be long and floppy, go out of alignment easily and are often postioned 10mm or more behind the blade reducing their effectiveness, rather than a riving knife as there would be no way to keep the position of the riving knife the same relative to the blade. In other words the riving knife is better than a splitter.




As to the usefulness of the sliding carriage I think it depends on the size and type of the stock you are handling. For most joinery applications (i.e. frame and panel constructions, etc) a rip saw (or a table saw with a rip blade and run-off table) or bandsaw in conjunction with a crosscut saw (i.e. a chop saw or radial arm saw) will be more flexible than a table saw with a sliding carriage - partly because long narrow stock tends to flop about on most small sliding carriages. The two main instances I can see a sliding carriage being of great use is where you don't have a cross cut saw in the shop or where large quantities of small panel stock are being sized.

Your color on the BGP is probably Hammerrite green, although to be frank there is almost nobody left at the company who can remember the pre duo-tone green days of the 1970s let alone the change from grey to metallic green in the 1960s. At least until about 1958 all Wadkins/Bursgreens were delivered as standard in grey paint with names picked-out in white (or sometimes in machines like the PK, red) unless the customer specified otherwise. This paint was lead based, so if you strip it you will need to be careful . Bursgreen became part of Wadkin in the 1950s, but even there Bursgreen machines continued to be painted grey for a number of years. The green colour came about as a result of either/both the retention and marketing of the "Bursgreen" name (post 1957) or (according to some) as a result of changes in the regulations governing machine colours at the Hannover Fair in the early to mid 1960s when all woodworking machines exhibited had to be green. How very German!. Either way by the 1960s Bursgreen machines were green, but that green was normally a metallic green(hammerite)

I do have a splinter and crown for that machine

jack
English machines

[wryanddry]

Hi dmorgan, unfortunately the riving knife on this machine is also missing, so if you do obtain a photo or drawing I also need to fabricate one. I read somewhere that another owner fabricated one from a 17" old ripsaw blade..

[jgarrett forsberg]

Hi dmorgan, unfortunately the riving knife on this machine is also missing, so if you do obtain a photo or drawing I also need to fabricate one. I read somewhere that another owner fabricated one from a 17" old ripsaw blade..

Riving/spliter knives are supposed to be slightly thicker than the body of the blade, but slightly thinner than the tips, so for example a typical 10/12" blade has a 2.8mm thick body with 3.2mm tips, the riving knife would therefore need to be around 3.0mm thick. The front edges of the knife should both be slightly tapered and it needs to be aligned with the blade - 1mm out is way too much. I'd suggest trying to shim the riving knife if at all possible (with paper, card, etc) if this is possible and size the knife to the blade.




The thicknesses of riving/splitter knifes offered on north ameriacan saws are actually just standard steel gauges. 13, 12 and 11. The smaller the number, the thicker the stock. Here is a link to standard steel sheet gauges. powder coat if it has it adds 3 or 4 mils to each side
http://www.coasteltools.com/tech_steel_gauge_chart.htm
Most factory supplied spliters use 14 gauge and even less in some cases. Very few use thicker, but there are some. It has been my experience that getting a splitter very close to the kerf thickness is bad. It can often result in sticking and pinching on nearly every cut. This is also not safe. It will cause you to want to apply more pressure to feed and that is undesirable.

Like I said I have a spliter and crown for that machine for sale just PM if interested.

jack
English machines

[wryanddry]

Hello Jack,

wow that's a load of great info. Yeah this saw takes up a lot of room. I currently have it set up in a double car garage in such a way that I can use the slider to crosscut a 4' sheet to rip an 8' sheet. I have enough room behind the saw to load the sheet but must have the garage door open to feed it out. It is not really practical for a home shop buy I wasn't about to not buy it for $75 cdn. Also I used Wadkin machines a lot during my furniture design degree course at trent polytechnic in Nottingham, UK. Wadkin were built in Nottingham and Leicester I believe, so there is a nostalgic and geographic connection to this machine for me. My old Canwood contractor saw was way more practical for my application but I found that as soon as I altered the blade from 90 degrees the blade did not stay parallel to the fence. I really wanted to replace it with a cabinet saw with more robust trunnions, something like a general or Powermatic but $$$ prevented me. If you want to part with any parts you have for this saw please let me know.

[wryanddry]

Jack you are correct that the older BGP saws came with a 3HP 3 phase motor as standard, 5 HP motors were available as an upgrade, mine came from a school and I assume with the abuse anticipated in this environment it made sense to upgrade. I double checked and the motor is a 5 hp unit, will the VFD you provided a link for be OK for a 5 hp motor? I am no electrician...

[jgarrett forsberg]

Jack you are correct that the older BGP saws came with a 3HP 3 phase motor as standard, 5 HP motors were available as an upgrade, mine came from a school and I assume with the abuse anticipated in this environment it made sense to upgrade. I double checked and the motor is a 5 hp unit, will the VFD you provided a link for be OK for a 5 hp motor? I am no electrician...

The consumer listing for VFD are in HP but the truth be told its the Amp out put that matters. The Temco i link to is 10.5 amps at 240.

The way i see it is you already have a motor(5hp) for free. You listed it at 13 amps full load and it was a dual voltage 240 /440. If you wire the motor for 240 if it is not now and feed it with the temco VFD you can get about 4 HP out of the motor before its trips the overload on the VFD with no harm to the motor or the VFD. You would just press reset like a Magnet starter on any saw if you overloaded the motor. You will never be able to burn this motor out b/c you can never feed it more than 10.5 amps.
So it make no sence to get a new 3hp motor. A 5 hp motor take no more power to run than a 3 hp when giving 3 hp from it. If it was a 3 hp motor on the VFD all you would get is 3 HP. The VFD become your starter and you can even wire in the start station on your saw to control it. You wire the VFD to the motor and the VDF to single phase. That's it. the controls you can wire in and there not hard to do but you don't need to . I have 4 VFDs in the shop as well as a RPC that i run 600/240/208 volts machines on too.

Trent is a good school. Do they still have the big Robinson 24" rip saw with the short fence?

here is a temco on my Deltas 40 c RAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjpYuuCkD5k&feature=plcp

jack
English machines

[wryanddry]

Sounds like the vfd is the way to go after all. So you feed the VFD 240v from the panel and connect the motor directly to the vfd which effectively becomes your starter, replacing the mag switch. I was thinking of the vfd like a phase converter which would supply the 3 phase and have a mag switch downstream of the vfd. when you say I could "wire the start station on my saw to control it" do you mean having the single phase go to the existing mag switch then to the vfd? On your setup you have the mag switch feeding the VFD then another switch downstream of the vfd, now I like the big on/off safety switch idea but do you still get the soft start etc with that switch? or to get the soft start etc must you have the VFD as the on/off switch?

I don't recall the 24" rip saw but it was back in 1985-89. I do remember the thicknesser/planer (jointer) combo, nearly lost my thumb on the planer feeding too short stock through it, never forgot that lesson. The scariest machine in the shop when i was there was the double ended tenoner, that thing sounded like it wanted to remove body parts when it fired up. How are you familiar with the machinery at Trent?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, most VFD's can be programmed to accept external inputs, such as stop/start and fwd/rev push buttons.

You would have to make sure that the VFD you buy is capable of this, then you can use push buttons located wherever you want on your saw.

You do not need a mag starter, and shouldn't be using one with a VFD. The VFD will provide power loss protection ( you program it to not restart after a power failure), and the VFD will provide overload protection for the motor.

You should add a locking disconnect switch to the saw for use when changing tooling or if you have un-authorised operators in the family.

You are heading in the correct direction by using a VFD.

Regards, Rod.

[J. Vibert]

You are heading in the correct direction by using a VFD.

Regards, Rod.

Yeppers....

[dmorgan]

Actually I need a photo of the riving knife bracket not the knife. Someone has removed the plate that sits around the arbor of the saw which the riving knife attaches to. This plate allows the riving knife to raise and lower with the blade. Currently the splitter and or riving knife only tilts due to the removal of it.
I have the Riving knife and the guard.

[wryanddry]

dmorgan,

Oh Ok I should have actually read what you wrote! Ok I will take some pictures of the bracket on my saw and post them. If you need detailed dimension drawings I can also likely help you out given a little time. I have access to a CAD tool, SolidWorks so could model the parts up if needed.. I will take pictures first then just let me know what other details you need.