Ducting, wye's, 90's & blast gates

[matt.mackinnon]

Its time yo get my cyclone working. i need to install the ducts, but have a few questions to make sure that I do it right. I am going with 6" PVC as I feel more comfortable with the stuff.

As my ceilings aren't massively hight, I have to run my ducts around the outside of the room and feed down to the machines. As I branch off for a machine with a wye fitting, does it make a difference how far the blast gate is from the main trunck? ie, will I get less loss if the blast gates are all coming off a wye split, or can I put the blast gate futher down the split off line to put it near to the machine that's connected?

I have read Bill's DC bible as some may call it, and gather that when turning corners, that sweeping arc's are better than sharp turns. Again, as space is not on my side, at what point is a sweeping arc good enough? Like you can get small 90s that turn the corner in under 4", and longer 90s that are 9". Or you can put 2x45s that are 20", or 4x22.5s that are 46".

I gather that 4" is rather bad, but would a 9" turn kill your air flow that much to be crippling?


What have others done and how does it work. I am installing a larger Clearvu Max (1800cfm) cyclone into a 18x17' double car garage. There is only the one of me so I'll be using one blast gate at a time. Will the unit just overcome what is thrown at it by brute force, or do I just give up aesthetics for pure function and how it looks be damned.

Addendum

I got a quote from one supplier for the PVC pipe. Just want to run it by to see if it seems fair.

6" x 10' pvc sewer pipe - $59
6" x 6" pvc wye fitting - $29.50
6" 45deg fitting - $15.90
6" 90deg fitting - $21.50

I was planning on getting some more quotes, but thought I'd ask if that sounds about right as unless you know what is realistic, then it's hard to say f you are just being given a price to shut you up as they want to deal with big contractors and not us small home DIY people. For example, HD online has a 6"x 6&4 wye fitting for $13.50 but no store in all of Ontario or Quebec has and in stock, so who knows if this was a sell it to get rid of it price that never got removed from the system.

[John JMK]

Use 2 45's with a short piece of pipe to make a long 90 deg. Doesn't matter where the blast gate is located.

John

["C"]

I used long 90 degree elbows - works so well I still only have my DC hooked up to it and my Cyclone waiting in pieces. Bought everything from May Wilbert in Port Huron and saved around 50% vs buying locally.

Here's my thread:

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...hread&p=387230

C

[Lost in the Woods]

I used two 45's wherever possible. I does make a difference imo.

Blast gate locations do not matter other than they should bewhere they are easily within reach moreso to promote their use.

I went with PVC as well for ease of installation. It dry connects very well, and I have found I did not need to seal joints other than where blast gates were. Blast gates can be a pita to get a good fit. I found they worked best when they were butted up to something that the pipe and the gate could be affixed to rather than the blast gate and pipe being freestanding. Silicone caulk does not seem to stick to PVC. Some solutions for a good fit involved the use of creating inner gaskets with high friction silicon tape, old bicycle inner tubes cut up, masking tape, etc.

I ran copper wire inside my pvc to eliminate static shock surprises. Not sure this was necessary. Initially it was out of a safety concern of sparks created a potential explosion situation, which later I discovered is a myth in small shop scenario's, but the finger tingling/numbing zaps you can get on the exterior is apparently very real, so it was not all for naught.

[Wally in Calgary]

I think the best blast gates are the ones that you make yourself and I have no problems with leakage or fit.

[OttawaP]

Why are you using PVC. It's overkill and expensive with such a large cylcone able to move mountains of material. Use 26ga hvac fittings. My longest run is over 50' and is plenty strong for sucking dust from any tool.

[Jack in Nepean]

Sonotube with HVAC fittings works well too.

[matt.mackinnon]

Why are you using PVC. It's overkill and expensive with such a large cylcone able to move mountains of material. Use 26ga hvac fittings. My longest run is over 50' and is plenty strong for any tool.

I phoned around and the first set of quotes I got was in the $60 for a 10' run. But with a bit of persistence, I now have on order some of the light thin walled PVC for $28.60 for 10'. When I checked at HD, the longest snaplock 26g 6" pipe was 5' and cost over $16. So it costs more than the PVC that I am getting. The fittings in metal was also more and not nearly as well made.

But for me the kicker is that the Hazen/Williams friction factor in PVC pipe is so very good. It lets the air flow much better and that is good for me. And also that PVC is far easier to assemble.

[Don Burch]

The PVC 90's Wolsley had in Edmonton were a very shot, hard 90. I spent a bit more and doubled up on 45's. I think you could use the HVAC segmented 90's quite easily. All of the ribs make for a very strong fitting. There would be some friction loss but you could build a nice sweep elbow that would more than compensate for any loss.
Place your blast gates for convenience - close to the machine. If generating a lot of dust leave the cyclone run for 30 seconds after you stop cutting. Your Max has enough jam to overcome pretty well everything you throw at it.

Don

[matt.mackinnon]

I used long 90 degree elbows - works so well I still only have my DC hooked up to it and my Cyclone waiting in pieces. Bought everything from May Wilbert in Port Huron and saved around 50% vs buying locally.

You are correct that the cost out here is much higher than in the USA. I actually sort of haggled and got them do bring down the prices a bit. But I didn't have a whole lot that needed to get bought, and for me the bigger cost was time to drive out to the border and then deal with that on a Canada Day long weekend. I am sure my sanity is worth something.

Thanks for linking back to your site. I changed my design a bit as you inspired me to do it differently than planned. I will have to provide photo's when it gets done.

[matt.mackinnon]

I got my order from Wolseley today. I don't know if it was overly expensive, but for getting it and getting the job done, I was willing to spend what it took. I did get them to give me a more aggressive price on the 6" PVC s&d pipe, and that helped bring the price down.

For what it's worth, got the 90deg elbows and compaired them to some of the 45's, the radius of the curve works out to being identical. So their long 90's are really that. (and cost me $10 less to boot from getting 2x45's). I will probably start installing on Monday as the weekend looks pretty booked up with Canada Day events.

Photo's to come.

[Lost in the Woods]

I have to say Matt, not sure how hard you worked on getting a better price on spiral, but when I was going thru the process you are now working your way thru, I did get a warehouse desk manager at Don Park at my beconing offering me a 30-40% discount on their ridicoulous listed prices, which is pretty well their wholesale price, and also had a HVAC fellow I knew who was willing to 10% "up" his wholesale price on the spiral stuff as well which he said was better than the "wholesale" price, as a favour.

I went with 4 inch PVC all bought at HD because of the "no returns" policy at the aforementioned, and the fact that due to some application intracacies I knew I had to deal with, I had to try PVC and see if it worked. You may recall my tight DC ducting network when you came over for your visit.

For me, PVC did it, but I do warn that for some it may not. Length of runs, straightness of runs, and efficency of suction were all big question marks, but fortunately, it worked for me. I say this only in this thread for those to consider who are reading and may embark on a fruitless pusuit going PVC. There's been more than a few posters or people I've known who've swaped out PVC for Spiral, and while I'm not one of them, I could have been. There's a crap shoot element going with PVC.

[matt.mackinnon]

Kevin,

I went PVC for several reasons.

1. In my last shop, I have the PVC S&D pipe and found that it was very easy to use and assemble. It took me several attempts to get the ducting right, in that I moved machines around and re-configured my shop layout to get the best use and movement. With PVC it was simple to uncouple a pipe section and re-assemble it in a different manner. It was not bad on waste as it's easy to add on a pipe coupler and two shorter pieces become a long one. I don't know how you'd do that with spiral metal.

2. Cutting the PVC to length is easy. And you slot it without needing glue or screws or anything that would make it permanent.

3. Got it all from one store and it was local. The cost of time to find, haggle, drive out and get.. No Thanks. My time is worth something and easy wins hands down. That is why I gladly paid more than ordering from the USA for far cheaper but more effort to get.

PVC I found doesn't weigh that much if you go with the thin walled S&D pvc. I will take my time to make nice looking hangers. But that is by choice.

[mreza]

A 10 foot of 6" spiral (in 24" or 22" gauge I think) costs around $22 here, and even less if you buy more. You looked at the wrong place (HD) for these materials.

[matt.mackinnon]

A 10 foot of 6" spiral (in 24" or 22" gauge I think) costs around $22 here, and even less if you buy more. You looked at the wrong place (HD) for these materials.

And your gas costs 20-30 cents a L less than here in the GTA, along with many things. The problem is that many of the places that sell spiral don't want to deal with small customers and they show it by putting a 200% markup. As said, I will by based on ease. Spending 2-3 weeks trying to find someone to sell me pipe at a reasonable price is a waste of my time.

[mreza]

And your gas costs 20-30 cents a L less than here in the GTA, along with many things. The problem is that many of the places that sell spiral don't want to deal with small customers and they show it by putting a 200% markup. As said, I will by based on ease. Spending 2-3 weeks trying to find someone to sell me pipe at a reasonable price is a waste of my time.

You said you checked with HD for spiral and I said it was the wrong place to look for these stuff and that these are not more expensive than PVC.
But if you are happy with your decision that's all matters. Good luck.

[matt.mackinnon]

You said you checked with HD for spiral and I said it was the wrong place to look for these stuff and that these are not more expensive than PVC.
But if you are happy with your decision that's all matters. Good luck.

No. I didn't say that I looked at HD for spiral. I said that the snaplock HVAC steel pipe was more expensive.

When I checked at HD, the longest snaplock 26g 6" pipe was 5' and cost over $16. So it costs more than the PVC that I am getting. The fittings in metal was also more and not nearly as well made.

I did call another company out of Mississauga and they too were much more expensive. Like wood, if you call enough mills I are willing to travel far, you can save a bundle on wood. But then you have to compare the cost of your time and effort for the gains that you will get.

[Rusty]

Do I hear reality or just a change in philosophy? I think I remember a time when you couldn't include your time into the cost of doing things. Ha Ha Ha

[matt.mackinnon]

Do I hear reality or just a change in philosophy? I think I remember a time when you couldn't include your time into the cost of doing things. Ha Ha Ha

Yes Rusty. You got me on that one. I would rather be doing actual wood working, than driving around for days on end to save a few dollars. I get a chuckle at my folks who will drive across town to save 20 cents on a bag of milk.

[Lost in the Woods]

Here's something you may want to get Matt that unlike duct tape leaves no residue and is a lot cheaper than the high friction silicone tape I mentioned earlier.. Only problem is, who in Canada carries it.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/202...x-25-long.aspx