Keeping up with the Forsbergs...Wadkin PK Sliding Table Saw

[J. Vibert]

Good thing you had your safety sandles on moving such a heavy piece of equipment.

Well it gets to a point where things are so heavy, that a steel toe isn't going save you anyway...lol.

Jarrett that's a beauty. I'm going to love seeing you fix it up. I'm pretty sure you'll rival Jack's rescue but it's going to take some time for sure. Is your plan going to be to find the parts first and then proceed?

Thanks Rusty.... Ya, the plan is to take some time searching for odds and ends while I'm plugging away at other projects. I don't have the means to run the PK at the moment, or will have in the near future either, so there's no rush to get it done.

[mikeddd]

Nice find Jarrett, I look forward to following the restoration process. Are you going to need a phase converter and transformer too power the PK?

[J. Vibert]

Thanks Mike...

When it comes time to run the PK, I'll have a few options. The easiest would most likely be a RPC. Given my line of work, I could fairly easily construct one for this purpose. However I could also opt to get the motor rewound for 220v 3ph, and use a VFD with a single phase input. There is one other route although most likely the most costly. I could source a replacement motor out of the UK and run it with a VFD on our single phase residential power.

I really don't expect to have any other ''modern'' machines in my shop. My tastes lie with turn of the century equipment that would normally use 220v RI motors, if not a line shaft. That said, I'll still most likely go the RPC route.

[J. Vibert]

Hey Jaaaaaaaaaack.....

I need a favour if you don't mind me asking... I've pulled off the mechanism for the slider retaining pin, and I feel fairly comfortable saying it's been completely re-invented by a previous owner...
IMAG1241.jpg
By my count, that's...:
1- piece of phenolic for the busted handle
1- piece of plastic that resembles wood for the base
2- screws that have been turned down (badly) on a grinder
1- piece of steel rod that has 2 different cut down bolts screwed into it to make up the pin

At any rate, I was hoping you'd be able to find the time to post a pic of your assembly so I have something to remotely close to oem to model from. I was looking at your PK pics posted online and none give a really good look at the handle.

On Arthur's blog I did find a good example of the retaining system for the quadrant he made, but of course that has a different handle.
Untitledpkq.jpg

If you can also squeeze the time in, could you take a measurement of the thickness the mounting plate as well.... Mine is just a chunk of fake wood, so I'm sure it's not even close to what it's "supposed" to be.

Thanks in advance Jack.

Jarrett

[J. Vibert]

Also Jack....

When I was taking the retaining pin apart I gave the PK's slider a harder once over and focused in on something we were talking about at your place.

You commented on the stamped letters located near the leading edge of the slider. I noticed two things... One, that there's actually three letters at the leading edge, not two.
IMAG1246.jpg
The letter that's slightly clipped off by the hole looks like a 'T' to me. Now what makes it slightly more interesting is that at the other end of the etched compass markings is this....
quadgauge.jpg
So at the leading egde it's "TRE" and the trailing edge it's "TRI". I have to think these markings must be related in some manner. Maybe in laying out the etching for the compass...? It does seem a little odd that the "TRI" is within the etchings, but the "TRE" (at least on my saw) is well outside the etchings. However if it were inside the etched lines, it would fall into the miter slot, and be only visible if the filler was in place.

Food for thought...

[jgarrett forsberg]

These are the pics i sent Arthur . The taper is in you table so you can match that.
Ii got.










jack
English machines

[J. Vibert]

Thanks Jack,

Two things if you don't mind.

-Do you have a side profile pic of the release handle for the slider retaining pin...? I can't find any pictures of it online.

-What's the piece I've circled below...?
Untitled.jpg
It almost looks like a loading ball bearing. I've seen that used to passively hold things in place. Usually strong enough to hold the part but easily overcome with a little physical effort.


Thanks

Jarrett

[jgarrett forsberg]

its just a pin and spring with the screw cap holding it in the bore. My was packed with mahogany that's is what you see.
Your handle is a fair facsimile of the real McCoy.I do not have any of it.
jack
English machines

[J. Vibert]

Although, I have some much more pressing projects I need to get done, there was a changing of the guard so to speak and so I've had to minimize my machine shop time lately. Basically what that means is, I've only been able to do small things that require next to zero set up time. Keeping that in mind, I thought I'd focus a little attention to some odds and ends that needed addressing on the PK.

Like mentioned earlier, the previous owner cobbled together some things just to maintain functionality, but sadly they by no means resembled the original Wadkin pieces. I'm not about to create patterns and cast these would be small iron parts, especially seeing that I can mill or turn them out of steel.

the Wadkin collective are a friendly bunch.

To date, I only know three other PK owners. There's obviously more, but honestly, between these three, I have no doubt I'll be able to recreate everything I need to get my saw back up to running condition. Everyone here is fully aware of Jack, but South of the border there's a very intense owwm collector by the name of Arthur Fuege, (owwm.net). Arthur has gone as far as to make patterns for some PK parts, and I hope to have him cast a couple of pieces for me. Although both Jack and Arthur have been extremely helpful, they're both business men and their time to tear down their machines to give me a single measurement, simply isn't there, nor is it even a realistic request. Enter a new friend across the pond, Mark Wallace. Mark is at the tail end of his PK rebuild and has posted his work at his local forum..: http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/w...on-t61904.html

Mark has been very forth coming with providing me pics of these little bits I hope to focus on, and was even kind enough to take the time to develop a schematic of the pin I was inquiring about earlier...
pkretainingpin.jpg
Mark happened to damage this very pin during his rebuild, so I took the opprotunity to repay a favour and offered to make a replacement. My plan is to produce several of all the parts I make along the way, so others finding themselves in my situation will have a resource for these discontinued bits.

So behold..., my first Wadkin replacement part.
pin1.jpgpin2.jpgpin3.jpg
That pin was turned out of a piece of hardened shafting we use at work, and was done in a handful of steps so things wouldn't get out of wack.

The flat I milled in the shaft (second pic), is to allow Mark to easily mark/drill the hole for the handle retaining pin. The tapered section (third pic) aides in locking in the desired position of the PK's quadrant, and makes getting the slider held in the home position simplier. I'm proud to say I got to utilize the trig I learned in highschool yet again, that seems not to happen all that often regardless of how improtant they told me it was back then...

So that pin is the first of 6 I plan to make. I will require two for my PK, the one in the pics above is most likely somewhere over the Atlantic Ocean right now, and will hopefully end up in Mark's saw. The last 3 will be "extras", that may never see use, but very well could make another Wadkin lover a very happy man.

Once I'm done making all 6 pins, I'll turn my attention to the retaining caps, and then the handles. Unfortunately, everything else I need to do requires either tapping and/or threading. Being from the first half of the 1900's the PK uses the BSW (British Standard Whitworth) threading pattern, so I'm going to be forced into buying a tap/die set for this project, which isn't all bad, but like most things, everything I need isn't available in a single set....

[Mark in Burlington]

Jarrett, Well done on the part reproduction, 1 down... how many to go???
Might be able to snag your tap on ebay.

[jgarrett forsberg]

j

tell me me how you found the taper? my holes have ware from the pin sliding into the soft cast. If you have not made the rest i will take 2 but I want them in brass or mild steel. Great to see you helping Mark. I have found him the back half of the slider table double miter and will be shipping it soon.


jack
English machines

[J. Vibert]

Yep, the taps/dies are available on the dreaded ebay. However for a single tap and/or die from NA, I can buy a set that spans from 1/8" to 1/2" from the UK. The kick in the nuts there is I know for a fact I'll still have to buy a 5/8" tap/die on top of that...

In all reality, it's a rather small hurdle. Just a pain in the ass more than anything else.

[J. Vibert]

j

tell me me how you found the taper? my holes have ware from the pin sliding into the soft cast. If you have not made the rest i will take 2 but I want them in brass or mild steel.

The measurements Mark provided me were directly from his locking pin. So I asked for the base diameter, the tip diameter, and finally the length of the tapered section. Minused the tip diameter from the base, divided that by 2. Used that resulting value with the tapered section's length to create a right angled triangle. Solved for the hypotenuse, and trig'd it out to find the two unknown angles. Used the smaller of the two angles (easier on the lathe) and continually took passes cutting the taper until it's base measured the dimension Mark provided. Then trimed the tip until I had the needed length. ....easy peasy

With mine... I'll most likely do what you suggested, and grab the needed base and tip values from the holes in the table. If they are worn out of round (like yours may be) I'll get my hands on a tapered reamer that matches as closely as possible, and true up the holes. The base diameter of the taper is all that really matters. The rest just helps guide the miter into the proper position to get the base dialed in to the table preset.

I can spin up a couple of pins no problem Jack. If you perfer brass, it may take me a little time, as I don't have access to it normally. The mild steel is no problem... Are you hoping not to further wear the table by using a pin made of softer material...? I'm not sure if you can get any better performance out of the replacements though, if your table holes are worn. If you perfer, you could just forward me the tapered section's dimensions as accurately as possible and I could just oversize it a bit... your call.

Great to see you helping Mark. I have found him the back half of the slider table double miter and will be shipping it soon.

jack
English machines

Mark is a good guy, and I'm all for helping out good people whenever I can.

Feel free to drop me a line if you happen across any more random PK parts...lol. Not that the back half of the miter would have done me any good, and hopefully Arthur will come through anyways. Just putting the bug in your ear...

Jarrett

[wryanddry]

Hi J Vibert,

in my trolling ebay UK for Wadkin parts for my BGP came across this PK. Loads of detailed picturesof the accessories etc:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-PK-...t_17368wt_1163

Clive

[J. Vibert]

Thanks Clive. Every little bit helps....

[miket39]

Hi every one i'am new to this forum and forums generally. Always a lurker, that is until i bit the wadkin PK bug.
So took the advice of this forum and bought hopefully the ultimate table saw. Have been a wood work teacher for many years and couldn't bring myself to go chinese for a table saw for home. Would rather rebuild an originally well made machine than a poorly made new pressed steel piece of junk.( sorry if i've offended anyone, and i know this is a over simplification)
Unfortunately like every other PK out there the quadrants and mitre are missing, the likely hood of those turning up in down town Western Australia where i live is almost nil.
So the call goes out to the forum; is there any one willing to draw around their's for me (Plan & Elevation with key dimensions), and upload the file? Ill then be able to make the patterns. I've got plenty of pic's from various sources but hard dimensions are not available, other than the pin, which was from this thread (thanks Jarrett). In return, having cast and machined my quadrants i would be happy to pass the patterns on to any other worthy recipient. I would love to buy the castings shown earlier in the thread, but postage of the quadrants to Western Australia would be bordering on the extreme. Pattern making is within my skill set and theres a foundry 5mins down the road.

Thanks to all
I just love the enthusiasm of these forums
Regards
Miket

[J. Vibert]

Welcome to the forum Mike...

...and welcome to the nightmare that is sourcing parts for the Wadkin PK...lol

I did a quick check and saw that you're also a new member of your local forum, woodworkforums.com

L.S.Barker1970 on that forum has every scrap of documentation you'll need on the PK. Unfortunately, they didn't publish mechanical drawings for the various parts, or I'm sure Matty would have them.

I only know of 3 others that are forth coming with details regarding the PK. If you google "wadkin pk", and I'm sure you have already, you'll get endless hits on Jack's PK, (it's the really pretty one ). You'll get a couple for Arthur Fuege's blog "owwm.net". He's a old iron collector, and is the only person I'm aware of that's actively producing his own patterns for PK parts. The last resource is "Wallace" of ukworkshop.somethingorother .

Here's the link to Wallace's thread: http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/w...on-t61904.html

He's the guy that provided me the drawings for the quadrant locating pin. Now as far as I know, he still only has the front section of the quadrant, but like most of us, is on the hunt for the back half.

I don't know how accurate you're hoping to get with whatever drawing someone may provide you, but from the pics of the quadrant I've seen, it's going to be a long process getting all the specifics down on paper. I'm fairly sure I've read a few comments on the woodworkforums.com about others in Oz with PKs. I'd have to think you're best hope is to reach out to one of them on that forum, and arrange a visit if they're willing. If they're really nice they may even allow you to use their quadrant as a pattern.

If all else fails, and if you're a patient man, I hope to have Arthur produce a quadrant for me at some time, (he's a busy guy). When that happens, I'll give you any specifics you need.

Welcome to the fraternity , and enjoy the slippery slope. It's a sweet ride....

Jarrett

[Brian @ Muir]

These threads make great reading and I admire everyones dedication. Shipping parts and tools seems a difficult and expensive task but I have shipped a motorcycle to Europe and back on two occasions and the price was not all that bad. Both times it went by container. I delivered it to Toronto, in an enclosed box that I built, to a forwarding company. On a weekly basis this company( name escapes me ) ships containers by truck to Montreal where it is loaded on a ship. These containers go to a port in England and are unloaded and the contents are reassigned to their destination. My bikes were sent on to Frankfort, Germany and the total freight cost was $600 USD.The billing is based on volume of the freight, not weight. My Goldwing was in a box that was 3 cubic meters. The billing for the trip was broken down into destinations and the charge from Toronto to England was less than $200. The forwarding co. in Toronto loaded my box into the container and that container held a variety of goods including several refridgerators. I am sure the prices have gone up but the last shipment was 8 years ago. The fact that it was a motorcycle had no bearing on the cost.

Brian

[miket39]

"I don't know how accurate you're hoping to get with whatever drawing someone may provide you, but from the pics of the quadrant I've seen, it's going to be a long process getting all the specifics down on paper."

It is fairly simple really; a trace around the quadrant on some paper with some overall dimensions, from there the hole spaces can be deduced from the table itself. Scan and upload.
Anyone printing out makes sure their printer prints to the over all dimension and WAHLAH you have your templates. Add 3/32" for machining of the key surfaces and you have the pattern piece sizes.

The essentials for patternmaking are; Some stable wood, MDF works (but not preferred), Car panel bog for the fillets, grey body primer (spray can) as a sealer, Pink spray on putty (spray can) to fill and sand out all the dents and draught angle on the pattern so it releases from the sand. About 3 degrees rule of thumb.

Forever hopeful
Mike

[J. Vibert]

A little while back Andre' posted a Wadkin rip saw that was somewhere in Western end of Quebec..:
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...320#post422320

After some healthy debate amongst the Wadkin brethren about whether or not this saw was going to be purchase outright for a restoration. It was finally determined that the sheer size combined with the seemingly difficult removal and the costs involved with ruckering such a machine were just too much to overcome. So, once I knew I could sleep at night if I requested the seller part out the crown guard assembly. I was all over it...

Once again, our members in Quebec came to my aide. Andre' was kind enough to help me communicate with the seller, (thanks again Andre' ). My first email to the seller was basically a feeler to see if he'd be willing to part out the saw. I didn't get an immediate response, but after a handful of days, he agreed to sell me just the guard assembly for the $50 I offered...

Although a relatively new member here, but regular on OWWM, "northerniron" offered to rucker the guard assembly for me, (right to my front door I should add ). Jim is also a member of the Wadkin fan club, and has on a couple of occassions shot me a heads up on equipment for sale. He's also one of the group that was after the PK I managed grab out of Montreal, . So, as I mentioned in the "highs and lows" thread. Jim dropped off the guard assembly to me last Saturday. We spoke for a few minutes about a handful of things. One thing he did mention to me was the condition of the rip saw the guard came off of. According to him, the saw was in very good shape considering the enviroment it was being kept in. He also explained that the seller's pic was deceiving as to the saw's apparent depth in the ground it was placed apon. From the pic (see above link) it looks as though the saw has sank a good foot into the ground. In reality, the saw was sitting on top of gravel and the grass surrounding it gave the "sinking" appearance. That's a real shame as the idea of the battle with mother nature in removing the wadkin from the ground was one of the reasons it was abandoned by the "brethren". Although I can't confirm it, I believe the saw went to the scrap yard as well. Before Jim picked up the guard for me, the seller explained that the saw was sold, and I needed to remove the guard asap. Well, it doesn't make any sense that someone bought the saw for use, but was still willing to purchase it without the guard, so I'm thinking it must have gone to scrap. At least, I managed to save the guard assembly.

So, without further ado...:
IMAG1395.jpg
To recap what was asked in the other "highs/lows" thread... The blade guard itself is much larger than the oem PK part. Keep in mind this guard was meant to protect you from a 32" blade, not the tiny little 18"er the PK uses... The adjustment post is what I was really after. Although I'm sure it's "taller" than the PKs, that can be fixed with a quick little bandsaw adjustment. Although I'm sure it's going to be way more effort than it's worth to do. I'm thinking I may try and save the "Wadkin" emblem on the guard. It's partially mangled by a heavy weld repair, but I just have a thing for trying to re-purpose stuff like this. Lets call it a homage to the Wadkin 32" S.R. that's now bubbling away in a foundary somewhere.

Ok, now that the back story has been told, we can get on with it...
IMAG1396.jpg
Here's the assembly being worked on. Like most things I try to restore, this guard assembly was destined to be completely torn down, cleaned up, and reassembled. ...ah ya, that's easier said than done...lol. My first task was to remove the arm that's meant to span over the table's surface and hold the guard itself. The locking screw came out with little effort, and in reality just set me up for the nightmare that was the arm removal. This thing was rust welded in place. I soaked the cast hub in penetrating fluid, and heated the ever living *bleep* out of this thing, and it wouldn't budge. Finally I resorted to steady amounts of more p-fluid and mid-power hammering on the end of the shaft, hoping the vibration would loosen things up. I used a brass hammer to try and minimize the damage to the shaft, but it still mushroomed somewhat.

Speaking of mushrooming... Does anyone know what happens to a cast hub when you try to force an overly large piece of steel through it...?
IMAG1400.jpg
yep... that's a crack...

I don't know how well you can make it out, but I swear I chamfered the hell out of that shaft before the end got close to the hub. Needless to say, I didn't do it well enough, cause the ensuing damage is obvious enough. As soon as I saw the crack, I was in full on damage control. First thing I did was try to relieve the pressure on the hub, so the crack wouldn't grow. What I did was drill a few holes into the end of the shaft as near the edge closest to the crack. The idea was to weaken that portion of the shafting and allow the cast hub to return to it's intended shape. I don't have a play by play pic, (mainly because I had more improtant things on my mind) but you can see the first pilot hole I drilled in the above pic. Next step was to cut off the guard arm at the other end of the hub, and hammer it back toward the crack section. I really didn't want to trash the arm, but it's only a piece of off the shelf shafting, and not a rare piece of cast iron. After all was said and done, here's what finally fell out...
IMAG1401.jpg
So now the improtant bit...:
IMAG1405.jpg
So the crack is still there (obviously), but at least it didn't grow at all before I could remove the shafting. The plan is to cut out that crack with a hacksaw blade or the like, and fill it with weld. It really isn't all that large so I'm not too worried about the weld fix warping the ID of the cast hub.

Next up... The base removal....