Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is there life after Sikkens?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is there life after Sikkens?

    Bonjour!

    I am looking for advice on what products could be used for staining red cedar siding that was previously treated with Sikkens Log. I have waited too long for retreating the south facing sections and the finish started to peel off.

    The wood is being refreshed now: paint stripper, sanding and sitting time to allow the surface to dry for a few days prior to applying new product.

    I have been informed that it is very difficult to use anything else than Sikkens products once the wood has been treated with it.

    I am looking for words of wisdom from those who have attempted to use an oil-based product after stripping the Sikkens product. Success or failure; I want to know .

    Thanks,

    Jacques
  • Thread Continues Below...

  • #2

    Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

    I thought Sikkens was the best out there, I'm not sure what you mean by Sikkens Log what is the Log bit? I thought Sikkens was a 3 coat or more treatment that stays flexible, but then I have seen most things fail on cedar and your climate is harsh.
    Good luck

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

      I did the same thing as you years ago with a cedar sided home. Stripper, sanding and time to dry a bit. My solution then was to go to a semi transparent stain, I don't recall the brand right now, but it was a regular commercial pigmented oil based stain. I had no problems with adhesion or anything else. The Sikkens product seemed to me to be a surface covering only and once it was gone there was no residual left.

      Thompson's water seal on a deck is another story. Once it has been applied, nothing else will stick. Maybe that's what your information refers to?
      The difference between a master and a beginner: The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried.

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

        Originally posted by bkrits View Post
        I thought Sikkens was the best out there, I'm not sure what you mean by Sikkens Log what is the Log bit? I thought Sikkens was a 3 coat or more treatment that stays flexible, but then I have seen most things fail on cedar and your climate is harsh.
        Good luck
        Bob:

        There are various products available from Sikkens. The Cetol 1,2,3 is one of the most popular. The one is used in the past was called Log and Siding. This is what is being removed right now. Sikkens is widely viewed as the best product by many. I have had good results on the north facing exposure; less so on southern exposure. My research suggests that most products - we prefer semi-transparent finish - will require treatment after 2 or 3 years on those sunny, hot portions of the siding. As a result, I am considering using a product that will not peel, which is the problem I have experienced with the current finish.

        J.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

          Originally posted by smallerstick View Post
          I did the same thing as you years ago with a cedar sided home. Stripper, sanding and time to dry a bit. My solution then was to go to a semi transparent stain, I don't recall the brand right now, but it was a regular commercial pigmented oil based stain. I had no problems with adhesion or anything else. The Sikkens product seemed to me to be a surface covering only and once it was gone there was no residual left.

          Thompson's water seal on a deck is another story. Once it has been applied, nothing else will stick. Maybe that's what your information refers to?

          Peter:

          Thanks for the feedback. Your experience gives me hope that we may be able to transition to another product ! I do not mind having to refresh the southern exposure areas but would like to avoid having to strip peeling finish. If ever you come across the name of the product you used, I will be glad to know. What has been your experience so far with having to refresh southern exposure?

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

            Wait, you're telling me Sikkens ain't the best out there?

            Comment

            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

              I've done the sanding off of peeling Sikkens 1, 23+ because I've waited too long on sunny exposure walls. Normally was putting the Sikkens back on but I did my garage with Flood Semi-transparent oil based stain a few years ago and it is fine. The lady in the store said to only put 1 coat on or it won't dry and I believe it. I dabbed some over an area that still had good Sikkens on it and it remained tacky for well over a year.

              Facia, soffits, etc were done with oil-based Sikkens solid colour stain and I've overcoated without sanding (pressure wash only) with Home Hardware Best Acrylic solid colour stain without any peeling or other issues. Of course the original was well-weathered before washing and redoing.

              billh

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                Originally posted by bugmenot View Post
                Wait, you're telling me Sikkens ain't the best out there?
                That actually is a good question. The original Sikkens was great stuff but like other products, what you get today in the can isn't the same formulation. Also, the price is getting very high.
                billh

                bugmenot likes this.

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                  Has anyone ever seen a product like Sikkens survive on cedar? I have not!
                  smallerstick likes this.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                    Originally posted by Jacques Gagnon View Post


                    Peter:

                    Thanks for the feedback. Your experience gives me hope that we may be able to transition to another product ! I do not mind having to refresh the southern exposure areas but would like to avoid having to strip peeling finish. If ever you come across the name of the product you used, I will be glad to know. What has been your experience so far with having to refresh southern exposure?
                    I'm sorry I can't recall the name or the brand. I took my problem to a shop in Toronto "Paint Colours Unlimited" and asked for advice. The owner mixed the colour in the product he was selling at the time. I believe his son still owns and runs the business.

                    His advice was to strip all the glossy, peeled, and peeling finish; rub down with steel wool or sandpaper then allow to dry thoroughly before applying new finish.

                    Maintenance after that was a piece of cake. As areas became faded and dry, simply recoat. Even if all the finish has worn or faded, no preparation is needed to recoat. You shouldn't have a problem finding a quality semi transparent oil based finish to use.
                    The difference between a master and a beginner: The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                      Thanks everybody for very useful information. I will follow up with the painters; the original plan was to go with Flood semi-transparent stain.

                      For the record, I am by no means saying that Sikkens products are not good. I am rather looking for an alternative that provides for easier maintenance over time. As an aside, a little bit of research allowed me to discover that both Sikkens and Flood/Dulux are part of the Akzo Nobel group.
                      Last edited by Jacques Gagnon; 06-20-2019, 09:20 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                        I am afraid to say there is a great deal of barking up a tree going on here.
                        Along with wishful thinking, well intentioned but false information, unsubstantiated hope, unrealistic expectations and an almost total lack of understanding of the basics of the problem.

                        The problem is wood itself, the nature of coatings...and what can actually realistically and reliably be achieved.
                        This is further compounded by the less than totally truthful nature of all wood coatings suppliers and the fact that people do not read data sheets or pay attention to the actual instructions......they only hear what they like and will look around for some source that says what they want to hear...then go with that because it makes them right!

                        There is no magic bullet in wood coating....sorry about that ....and if you are trying to keep your wood looking like new....good luck to you!
                        Its not ever, ever, ever (did I say ever?) going to happen.
                        Doesn't matter if its Sikkens, Flood, Duckback, Cabot, Wolmans or Garbensnarfer's legendary wood elixir made with toad's blood and extract of newt.
                        They all use pretty much the same technology.....and there is a great deal of smoke and mirrors in the marketing there of.
                        Everyone needs to understand that .....and stop trying achieve the impossible.
                        Lower your expectations, align them with reality and stop expecting to achieve unrealistic results ......your wood is going to age!

                        Before you all get up in arms and say "who is this horrible person who says all these terrible and rude things that we don't want to hear".....I've been in the coatings industry for over 35 years and have the credentials and resume to prove it. I deal mainly with steel coating (fortunately for me) but I have extensive 1st hand personal (and 3rd party, yes) experience dealing with wood and its problems and peoples laziness, ignorance and unwillingness to look at the actual data...let alone understand it.
                        Having said that......

                        Here are a few basic facts about wood coating.

                        Wood is a natural substance, it breaths, it absorbs and expels water, it's chemistry is altered by UV attack and by oxidation which actually changes the physical properties and the appearance of it.

                        When you coat it …. You are trying to prevent those things from happening.
                        Unfortunately for you… the coating you apply is also being attacked by the UV and the water and the oxygen and other nasty chemicals in the air…….. and over time it too will die…… and as it does this so the wood underneath is increasingly being ravaged.

                        Now this does occur on a gradient… which gets steeper the longer you wait.

                        Typically (pay attention…"typically” …..that means is going to happen to you) you must recoat or refresh the protective coating every two or at the worst-case three year interval……. otherwise you are asking for trouble as the resins and binders in your coating will be failing and your wood will be suffering……… then you are looking at complete removal and refinishing…. lots of work, expense, shame blame and regret.

                        Despite what the manufacturers will tell you (Flood for example gives you 10 years! Ha ha ha, more about that at a later time)….. You absolutely will not get more than 2 to 3 years out of any of your coatings… and thats if you pay attention to all instructions and fine print regarding the original prep and application. Less if you didn't.

                        Next horrible fact…. There are basically two flavours (or types) of wood protection…. penetrators or surface coatings.
                        Surface coatings can fall off (a revelation!)…. Because they sit on the surface and if you wait too long (err….2 or 3 years, remember) the adhesion will be decreasing and the wood deteriorating underneath…. bit by little bit…. until its too late.
                        Penetrators on the other hand….. penetrate into the wood (as the name implies) and tend to have better "adhesion" because they are one with the structure of the wood itself so delamination is a none issue…. but they also degrade over time and the surface of your wood will start to be (visibly and physically) attacked…. so they too must be recoated every two or three years….sorry about that.
                        Note that the penetrators are very fussy about how many coats and how thick they are applied…… frequently they are one coat only ….. there are actual technical reasons for this which I will go into here ….and if you put on 2 coats the second one sits on the surface, does not penetrate properly… and falls off in record time to exclamations of horror and cries of “It is no good”…… when actually the instructions had not been followed……that’s why manufacturer’s write instuctions eh…. they would like like you to succeed.

                        Oh and before I forget…. There is nothing mysterious or magic about Sikkens, you can of course coat over it …. with the proper surface prep (clean and sand).


                        Now, I could wax lyrical at great length and go on and on but possibly I have said enough to get the message across at this point.

                        I would finish by saying that I have seen the greatest success (for myself and many others) with penetrating type compounds….. applied carefully and re-coated every 2 to 3 years…..and yes south facing sides are the worst and suffer the most…. so be nicer to them, think earlier or more frequent recoat on those areas....you wait...you lose!

                        Good luck!

                        Julian
                        Lost in the Woods, Wally in Calgary and 2 others like this.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                          Originally posted by Julian View Post
                          I am afraid to say there is a great deal of barking up a tree going on here.
                          Along with wishful thinking, well intentioned but false information, unsubstantiated hope, unrealistic expectations and an almost total lack of understanding of the basics of the problem.

                          The problem is wood itself, the nature of coatings...and what can actually realistically and reliably be achieved.
                          This is further compounded by the less than totally truthful nature of all wood coatings suppliers and the fact that people do not read data sheets or pay attention to the actual instructions......they only hear what they like and will look around for some source that says what they want to hear...then go with that because it makes them right!

                          There is no magic bullet in wood coating....sorry about that ....and if you are trying to keep your wood looking like new....good luck to you!
                          Its not ever, ever, ever (did I say ever?) going to happen.
                          Doesn't matter if its Sikkens, Flood, Duckback, Cabot, Wolmans or Garbensnarfer's legendary wood elixir made with toad's blood and extract of newt.
                          They all use pretty much the same technology.....and there is a great deal of smoke and mirrors in the marketing there of.
                          Everyone needs to understand that .....and stop trying achieve the impossible.
                          Lower your expectations, align them with reality and stop expecting to achieve unrealistic results ......your wood is going to age!

                          Before you all get up in arms and say "who is this horrible person who says all these terrible and rude things that we don't want to hear".....I've been in the coatings industry for over 35 years and have the credentials and resume to prove it. I deal mainly with steel coating (fortunately for me) but I have extensive 1st hand personal (and 3rd party, yes) experience dealing with wood and its problems and peoples laziness, ignorance and unwillingness to look at the actual data...let alone understand it.
                          Having said that......

                          Here are a few basic facts about wood coating.

                          Wood is a natural substance, it breaths, it absorbs and expels water, it's chemistry is altered by UV attack and by oxidation which actually changes the physical properties and the appearance of it.

                          When you coat it …. You are trying to prevent those things from happening.
                          Unfortunately for you… the coating you apply is also being attacked by the UV and the water and the oxygen and other nasty chemicals in the air…….. and over time it too will die…… and as it does this so the wood underneath is increasingly being ravaged.

                          Now this does occur on a gradient… which gets steeper the longer you wait.

                          Typically (pay attention…"typically” …..that means is going to happen to you) you must recoat or refresh the protective coating every two or at the worst-case three year interval……. otherwise you are asking for trouble as the resins and binders in your coating will be failing and your wood will be suffering……… then you are looking at complete removal and refinishing…. lots of work, expense, shame blame and regret.

                          Despite what the manufacturers will tell you (Flood for example gives you 10 years! Ha ha ha, more about that at a later time)….. You absolutely will not get more than 2 to 3 years out of any of your coatings… and thats if you pay attention to all instructions and fine print regarding the original prep and application. Less if you didn't.

                          Next horrible fact…. There are basically two flavours (or types) of wood protection…. penetrators or surface coatings.
                          Surface coatings can fall off (a revelation!)…. Because they sit on the surface and if you wait too long (err….2 or 3 years, remember) the adhesion will be decreasing and the wood deteriorating underneath…. bit by little bit…. until its too late.
                          Penetrators on the other hand….. penetrate into the wood (as the name implies) and tend to have better "adhesion" because they are one with the structure of the wood itself so delamination is a none issue…. but they also degrade over time and the surface of your wood will start to be (visibly and physically) attacked…. so they too must be recoated every two or three years….sorry about that.
                          Note that the penetrators are very fussy about how many coats and how thick they are applied…… frequently they are one coat only ….. there are actual technical reasons for this which I will go into here ….and if you put on 2 coats the second one sits on the surface, does not penetrate properly… and falls off in record time to exclamations of horror and cries of “It is no good”…… when actually the instructions had not been followed……that’s why manufacturer’s write instuctions eh…. they would like like you to succeed.

                          Oh and before I forget…. There is nothing mysterious or magic about Sikkens, you can of course coat over it …. with the proper surface prep (clean and sand).


                          Now, I could wax lyrical at great length and go on and on but possibly I have said enough to get the message across at this point.

                          I would finish by saying that I have seen the greatest success (for myself and many others) with penetrating type compounds….. applied carefully and re-coated every 2 to 3 years…..and yes south facing sides are the worst and suffer the most…. so be nicer to them, think earlier or more frequent recoat on those areas....you wait...you lose!

                          Good luck!

                          Julian

                          Julian:

                          thanks for taking the time to prepare such a detailed answer. I understand and accept the fact that frequent (ie likely every second year) «retreatment » is a fact of life and that failure to do so falls entirely on my shoulders.

                          I understand from reading your post that stripping old product, followed by sanding will provide me with the basis for treatment of the siding, following manufacturer’s instructions. This answers my basic question.

                          Again, for the record I am not saying or implying that Sikkens products are not good. Regardless of the product that will be used, I will have to be diligent with the timing of follow-up treatments, particularly on southern exposures.

                          Thanks,

                          J.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                            I don't have the training & experience that Julian has, but having used many different types of exterior wood treatments over the decades tells me that he has hit the nail directly on the head.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Is there life after Sikkens?

                              Thanks Julian. I've always promoted the penetrators versus the coatings but the enemy is time and exposure. They will both fail ultimately. I look at it like applying water versus paint. When it's time for a redo, the water will be gone and the paint will need a lot of labour to repair.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X