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  • #31

    Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

    The plates are available. There will be other approved methods for joints.

    Sistering in an approved truss should meet standards.


    Last edited by Egon; 10-19-2020, 11:01 AM.
    Wood Grower likes this.
    Egon
    from
    The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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    • #32

      Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

      Originally posted by Inspector Ron View Post
      As I said in a previous post ("There may be other issues not directly related to how it is constructed.") it has come to light that the building is illegal non-conforming. Therefore the desire to not do any work on the exterior or discuss any changes with th building official.
      Fair enough. However, it doesn't mean you should make interior changes that compromise the structure. You could change the roof framing to act as some form of truss, but you would need an engineer to design the changes. Manufactered trusses are engineered and use specifically designed metal connection plates. I don't think those plates will be available to you and making up a plywood gusset isn't the same thing.
      That said, its possible to make some changes that might work, but if you want it done properly...
      I can fabricate about anything. I could probably fab an all steel truss. I would rather stay in wood. I can build a lot cheaper in wood. I could even fab some fancy steel board connections out of steel.

      My concern is as stated transfer load on correct geometry to prevent wall falling over. It seems the load would be straight down and the horizontal pieces prevent roof changing from a v to a flat shape.

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      • #33

        Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

        My concern is as stated transfer load on correct geometry to prevent wall falling over. It seems the load would be straight down and the horizontal pieces prevent roof changing from a v to a flat shape.

        With a purchased scissor truss all your design criteria should be met. Just portions of the original truss will need removal. The other portions will add strength to the new additions.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM5HdHt3GmE

        one type of connector that would work in sistering.
        Last edited by Egon; 10-19-2020, 11:38 AM.
        Egon
        from
        The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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        • #34

          Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

          Originally posted by Wood Grower View Post

          I can fabricate about anything. I could probably fab an all steel truss. I would rather stay in wood. I can build a lot cheaper in wood. I could even fab some fancy steel board connections out of steel.

          My concern is as stated transfer load on correct geometry to prevent wall falling over. It seems the load would be straight down and the horizontal pieces prevent roof changing from a v to a flat shape.
          There is a reason wood trusses are manufactured at a truss shop/factory and not onsite anymore - altho I'm sure there are rare cases where site-built or 'stick framed' roofs are still done.

          Its not just about the correct geometry either, the size of the truss 'connector plates', the precise position position of the connector plates, how the truss connector plates are pressed onto the truss frame (not hammered in) and the straightness and quality of the lumber used all contribute to the strength of the truss. The quality of a typical 12' 2x4 SPF is pretty bloody poor.
          Last edited by cstephens2; 10-19-2020, 02:41 PM.

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          • #35

            Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

            Originally posted by Egon View Post
            The plates are available. There will be other approved methods for joints.

            Sistering in an approved truss should meet standards.

            Just be careful when selecting the 'plates'. For an example, Simpson Strong Tie sells 'mending plates' that clearly state that they are not for truss applications

            https://www.strongtie.com/miscellane.../mp_plate/p/mp

            The last time I looked into this, the tie plates approved for truss applications were hard to come by in anything less than boxes of 500. They were made from a thicker material and had larger X-Y dimensions than anything commercially readily available. MiTech comes to mind as one supplier.
            Last edited by cstephens2; 10-19-2020, 02:43 PM.

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            • #36

              Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

              Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post

              There is a reason wood trusses are manufactured at a truss shop/factory and not onsite anymore - altho I'm sure there are rare cases where site-built or 'stick framed' roofs are still done.

              Its not just about the correct geometry either, the size of the truss 'connector plates', the precise position position of the connector plates, how the truss connector plates are pressed onto the truss frame (not hammered in) and the straightness and quality of the lumber used all contribute to the strength of the truss. The quality of a typical 12' 2x4 SPF is pretty bloody poor.
              I am considering that I can use white oak and it would exceed anything that was existing connected with my roof already.

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              • #37

                Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post

                Just be careful when selecting the 'plates'. For an example, Simpson Strong Tie sells 'mending plates' that clearly state that they are not for truss applications

                https://www.strongtie.com/miscellane.../mp_plate/p/mp

                The last time I looked into this, the tie plates approved for truss applications were hard to come by in anything less than boxes of 500. They were made from a thicker material and had larger X-Y dimensions than anything commercially readily available. MiTech comes to mind as one supplier.
                Oh ha ha, when I was thinking plates I was thinking 1/4" or thicker steel drilled with a fastener through the wood and sandwich the wood between to steel plates. I'm sure that thing you show is pretty strong, but actual steel plate must be a lot thicker and heavier duty. Even if I put a square tubing over the end of the wood I could fabricate something that would easily exceed those plates shown. Anyways I might just be pulling the trigger and bulldozing the thing, just am talking about a new garage right today. I still am unsure on sizing though and I guess I need a site survey. 40x60 with 10 or 12 foot wall would probably be ideal.

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                • #38

                  Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                  Originally posted by Wood Grower View Post

                  Oh ha ha, when I was thinking plates I was thinking 1/4" or thicker steel drilled with a fastener through the wood and sandwich the wood between to steel plates. I'm sure that thing you show is pretty strong, but actual steel plate must be a lot thicker and heavier duty. Even if I put a square tubing over the end of the wood I could fabricate something that would easily exceed those plates shown. Anyways I might just be pulling the trigger and bulldozing the thing, just am talking about a new garage right today. I still am unsure on sizing though and I guess I need a site survey. 40x60 with 10 or 12 foot wall would probably be ideal.
                  Drilling holes big enough through a 2x4 for 1/4 steel flitch plates may actually detract from the strength of the 2x4. Putting steel tubing over the end of a truss member may move the shear point of that truss member to a unsatisfactory place.

                  You are trying to DIY this. IMO Dont.

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                  • #39

                    Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                    Originally posted by Wood Grower View Post

                    I am considering that I can use white oak and it would exceed anything that was existing connected with my roof already.
                    Why use white oak? Sounds like it would cost more than engineered trusses. Unless you want exposed architectural look, and even then its overkill IMO. Douglas Fir would be alot more expensive than standard SPF lumber these days and could probably well be what your stick built roof is made of now.

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                    • #40

                      Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                      Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post

                      Just be careful when selecting the 'plates'. For an example, Simpson Strong Tie sells 'mending plates' that clearly state that they are not for truss applications

                      https://www.strongtie.com/miscellane.../mp_plate/p/mp

                      The last time I looked into this, the tie plates approved for truss applications were hard to come by in anything less than boxes of 500. They were made from a thicker material and had larger X-Y dimensions than anything commercially readily available. MiTech comes to mind as one supplier.
                      as in almost all items there are different quality choices.

                      https://www.mitek-us.com/products/connector-plates/

                      I’m willing to bet that there were approved trusses built that had no metal plates and have stood the test of time.
                      Wood Grower likes this.
                      Egon
                      from
                      The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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                      • #41

                        Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                        Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post

                        Why use white oak? Sounds like it would cost more than engineered trusses. Unless you want exposed architectural look, and even then its overkill IMO. Douglas Fir would be alot more expensive than standard SPF lumber these days and could probably well be what your stick built roof is made of now.
                        Well I have a 2 foot diameter clear white oak log 20 feet long. Seems to be cheaper than going to the store for lumber to me.

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                        • #42

                          Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                          Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post

                          Drilling holes big enough through a 2x4 for 1/4 steel flitch plates may actually detract from the strength of the 2x4. Putting steel tubing over the end of a truss member may move the shear point of that truss member to a unsatisfactory place.

                          You are trying to DIY this. IMO Dont.
                          If I use 3/8 bolt grade 9 and make 2x6 oak board, I think it would be just fine. Even 1/2 or 5/8 bolt would be fine. The strength goes up significantly as diameter increases. Can probably be 3/8 x 4 bolts spaced 3 inches in line, and a plate over it, I'm pretty sure nothing would be unsafe about that. I could even make wood 3x6 or 2x12. Like I said wood isn't the issue. I'm pretty sure something could be sorted safely. The only thing is too big of bolts lowers the integrity of the wood so going with smaller fasteners seems better idea than large ones.

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                          • #43

                            Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                            Originally posted by Egon View Post

                            as in almost all items there are different quality choices.

                            https://www.mitek-us.com/products/connector-plates/

                            I’m willing to bet that there were approved trusses built that had no metal plates and have stood the test of time.
                            Yes, made from old douglas fir or oak, selected for super straight grain. Modern readily and reasonably cost effective available wood (SPF) doesnt meet these requirements, nor do they have to given the application of structural and materials engineering disciplines.

                            And I specifically mentioned 'Mitech' in my last post albeit oddly/wrongly spelled, but their availability in less than boxes of 500 seemed nonexistent when I last looked into this.

                            But whatever, OP can design what he wants and build what he wants.
                            Last edited by cstephens2; 10-19-2020, 08:09 PM.

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                            • #44

                              Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                              Originally posted by Wood Grower View Post

                              If I use 3/8 bolt grade 9 and make 2x6 oak board, I think it would be just fine. Even 1/2 or 5/8 bolt would be fine. The strength goes up significantly as diameter increases. Can probably be 3/8 x 4 bolts spaced 3 inches in line, and a plate over it, I'm pretty sure nothing would be unsafe about that. I could even make wood 3x6 or 2x12. Like I said wood isn't the issue. I'm pretty sure something could be sorted safely. The only thing is too big of bolts lowers the integrity of the wood so going with smaller fasteners seems better idea than large ones.
                              "I think it would be just fine". OK. Why bother with all the fancy pants engineering and math, right? Like I said before, you do you boo.

                              You came asking for advice, and numerous people said to consult a structural engineer. Why not take that advice?
                              Last edited by cstephens2; 10-19-2020, 08:10 PM.
                              Kayak Jim likes this.

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                              • #45

                                Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                                Originally posted by Wood Grower View Post

                                If I use 3/8 bolt grade 9 and make 2x6 oak board, I think it would be just fine. Even 1/2 or 5/8 bolt would be fine. The strength goes up significantly as diameter increases. Can probably be 3/8 x 4 bolts spaced 3 inches in line, and a plate over it, I'm pretty sure nothing would be unsafe about that. I could even make wood 3x6 or 2x12. Like I said wood isn't the issue. I'm pretty sure something could be sorted safely. The only thing is too big of bolts lowers the integrity of the wood so going with smaller fasteners seems better idea than large ones.
                                I'm not sure if you're asking or telling us. I am absolutely sure if you use quarter inch mild steel plate using at least a dozen hot rolled rivets at every connection with all the roof trusses also made out of quarter-inch steel you will be fine if they're on 16 inch centres and they're more than 18 inches thick. If they are double gusseted at every connection with hot rolled rivets you will be fine. How big is the shed again? What is the dead load calculation for your area and what are your walls studs? 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 or 2 x 8? Is this a floating pad or does it have a structural footing?

                                My standalone garage is 23 x 23. The footing is 5 foot below grade and is 8 inches thick and 24 inches wide. From there I built up 8 inch wide centre block aboat 10-12 inches above the soil. I insulated the block wall on both sides with 1 inch of foam and then put a weeper tube around the footing that drops into the septic weeping system. The 1 inch of foam on the inside of the block wall got 6 inches of a gravel topped with a floating 6 inch concrete cement pad. The walls are all 2 x 6 construction with stick frame 2 x 6 on 16 inch centres roof trusses and joist. I personally engineered it all, but I took it through the local building department. The local building department charged me about $200 as it also had a 60 amp panel in it.

                                Yeah the whole build did cost me close to $30,000, Labour not included, but the city put it on as a registered certified outbuilding. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for or not.

                                I have also lowered trusses by using Jack posts on every stud and a 12 high foot garage lowering the ceiling to 8 feet. This provided a loft. A city engineer gave approval for replacing the 6 inch joist with 12 inch joist with proper Jack support. The span was only 14 feet.

                                Reach out to your city engineer with a building permit and it will cost you almost nothing to get good advice. You pay city taxes for this. Why not take advantage.

                                My good old regular garage, the way I designed it could definitely I have a second floor. I would have to double or triple the 2 x 6 joists for living quarters and I might have to double or triple the studs. But, I would take this through my city engineer.

                                Not doing it through the city, in 10 years they could mandate nonconformance rip down. If you're trying to skate through the 10 years with engineering advice here. It will not float with the engineer in department of your city!

                                I'd rather see you make it safe and to engineering specs with your local building department on board, then doing it on the down low.

                                What's up? Are you scared to take out a building permit with city engineers? Are you afraid of property tax implications? I did not add water to the building. My property taxes or raised $200 a year for the building. I'm not crying. The building upped the property value by easy $100,000.
                                Last edited by Matt Matt; 10-20-2020, 01:05 AM.
                                beachburl and Jerome like this.
                                For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
                                Sir Isaac Newton.

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