Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Garage 'ceiling height'

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46

    Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

    Originally posted by Matt Matt View Post

    I'm not sure if you're asking or telling us. I am absolutely sure if you use quarter inch mild steel plate using at least a dozen hot rolled rivets at every connection with all the roof trusses also made out of quarter-inch steel you will be fine if they're on 16 inch centres and they're more than 18 inches thick. If they are double gusseted at every connection with hot rolled rivets you will be fine. How big is the shed again? What is the dead load calculation for your area and what are your walls studs? 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 or 2 x 8? Is this a floating pad or does it have a structural footing?

    My standalone garage is 23 x 23. The footing is 5 foot below grade and is 8 inches thick and 24 inches wide. From there I built up 8 inch wide centre block aboat 10-12 inches above the soil. I insulated the block wall on both sides with 1 inch of foam and then put a weeper tube around the footing that drops into the septic weeping system. The 1 inch of foam on the inside of the block wall got 6 inches of a gravel topped with a floating 6 inch concrete cement pad. The walls are all 2 x 6 construction with stick frame 2 x 6 on 16 inch centres roof trusses and joist. I personally engineered it all, but I took it through the local building department. The local building department charged me about $200 as it also had a 60 amp panel in it.

    Yeah the whole build did cost me close to $30,000, Labour not included, but the city put it on as a registered certified outbuilding. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for or not.

    I have also lowered trusses by using Jack posts on every stud and a 12 high foot garage lowering the ceiling to 8 feet. This provided a loft. A city engineer gave approval for replacing the 6 inch joist with 12 inch joist with proper Jack support. The span was only 14 feet.

    Reach out to your city engineer with a building permit and it will cost you almost nothing to get good advice. You pay city taxes for this. Why not take advantage.

    My good old regular garage, the way I designed it could definitely I have a second floor. I would have to double or triple the 2 x 6 joists for living quarters and I might have to double or triple the studs. But, I would take this through my city engineer.

    Not doing it through the city, in 10 years they could mandate nonconformance rip down. If you're trying to skate through the 10 years with engineering advice here. It will not float with the engineer in department of your city!

    I'd rather see you make it safe and to engineering specs with your local building department on board, then doing it on the down low.

    What's up? Are you scared to take out a building permit with city engineers? Are you afraid of property tax implications? I did not add water to the building. My property taxes or raised $200 a year for the building. I'm not crying. The building upped the property value by easy $100,000.
    I have a legal non conforming building. I hate it but it has concrete walls with wood roof. It isn’t big at all. If it collapses I wouldn’t shed a tear because I hate it absolutely. It is on property line and on odd angle too small too close to the house. I don’t think there is anything positive I like about it. Even the overhead and man door are junk. As I stated before just buying time to use longer. But I might be tear down and have new one next year and speculation is kind f pointless f I go ahead that quick.

    As for engineering screw the and their Covid hysteria. They completely closed down engineering for a while. It might be open now but it is more hassle than it s worth in my opinion. I’d rather just overkill it than deal with their drama. I don’t even think we have Covid but we have fear here....

    Comment

    • Thread Continues Below...

    • #47

      Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

      I'm just going to post this as an observation and an idea of what "I" would do if this were my thread and garage. This is NOT an encouragement to do anything.

      In this part of the country, "making do" has always been part of the psyche and because we have small populations spread out over large areas, the resources are sometimes limited, including building inspections etc. There has traditionally been an easing of requirements around here for buildings that are not habitations, including garages. Most of the garages around here are constructed using home brew trusses and rough cut, unstamped lumber. The trusses are assembled using plywood webs nailed to both sides of 2" x ?" parts, and that includes my own garage here, built several decades ago and still as solid as a rock.

      The OP's garage is not trusses however, so ....

      In the case under discussion in this thread, what I would likely do is cut a cross tie piece the same thickness as the rafters, bevel the ends to fit "under" the rafters and cut it to a length that allows it to be installed about 12" or 18" above the current ceiling joist. Then I would create plywood webs, large enough to span from the end of the rafter at the eave (or as far down as I could go), along the new cross tie about 18" to 24" (whatever looked appropriate) and up past the tie toward the ridge an equal length to the length below the tie. I would install verticals the same way in order to create a torsion box effect using the existing rafters, new cross ties and new verticals and use the ply webs to spread the load across the joints. Once that was done I would cut out the existing ceiling joists (cross ties) to make my new headroom.

      Again, this is speculation, but it's what I personally would look at.

      Wood Grower likes this.

      Comment


      • #48

        Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

        Why did you even post here if you don't want to take the advice of those here who have experience and know-how? Do what you want you what you are going to do anyway we will not stop you but we won't validate your ideas just because you are too lazy to do it right.
        Jerome
        Canada's South Coast

        Port Colborne On.
        CARPENTER noun. (car-pun-ter)
        1) A person who solves problems you can't.
        2) One who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data, provided by those of questionable knowledge. see also: wizard, magician.

        Comment


        • #49

          Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

          Originally posted by Jerome View Post
          Why did you even post here if you don't want to take the advice of those here who have experience and know-how? Do what you want you what you are going to do anyway we will not stop you but we won't validate your ideas just because you are too lazy to do it right.
          With all due respect telling somebody to hire an engineer and bring in inspectors is the lazy answer. There is nothing difficult about what he wants to achieve and the value is not there to justify an engineer's study. For a couple of hundred dollars he can replace the ceiling joists with a superstructure that will be stronger than they were.
          Wood Grower likes this.

          Comment


          • #50

            Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

            With all due respect according to the Ontario Building code which has jurisdiction here and the Canadain Building code that is exactly what he has to do. All the advice he has gotten here is great but changing the structure as he wants to is illegal without an engineered drawing and the approval of the local building department. As a facilitator for the OBC and a longtime construction worker, I think I know what id be doing but, I would not attempt this without an engineer's approval and neither should anyone else.
            Canuckwoods likes this.
            Jerome
            Canada's South Coast

            Port Colborne On.
            CARPENTER noun. (car-pun-ter)
            1) A person who solves problems you can't.
            2) One who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data, provided by those of questionable knowledge. see also: wizard, magician.

            Comment


            • #51

              Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

              lI do not pretend to know the ''law'' but normal building repairs don't require permits under a certain value and I cannot imagine an engineer wanting to approve modification to a building for which there were never plans. Possibly a complete new roof structure but even then not knowing the wall specs and condition he would probably decline. Preengineered buildings only started in the late seventies on farms around here and still today my local lumber yard will
              Wood Grower likes this.

              Comment

              • Thread Continues Below...

              • #52

                Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                Originally posted by Jerome View Post
                Why did you even post here if you don't want to take the advice of those here who have experience and know-how? Do what you want you what you are going to do anyway we will not stop you but we won't validate your ideas just because you are too lazy to do it right.
                It was stated early on this sort of thing is possible, however some people are trying to say don't bother because you don't know what your doing without knowing what I know. I can fabricate something that will be stronger than an engineer would make and stamp and the material costs will be lower than engineering costs. Engineers try to figure out the minimum material to do something safely. Engineers even doing this have failed greatly by building bridges that have collapsed. It is a serious job engineering, but if they say use a 2x6, I could put a 4x12 in place have more material use but a much stronger than engineered. This isn't a thread about how wrongly a job can be completed, it's a thread about is it possible to change from one system to another without taking everything down. Even it was suggested to buy prefab truss and build more on site that are identical to the fab unit, install then take off the old wood. So from at least 2 - 3 angles have been identified how to do this, but nobody said what sizes shapes to make to make it safe probably because they aren't engineers and identifying as an engineer falsely is a crime.

                Comment


                • #53

                  Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                  Originally posted by iamtooler View Post

                  With all due respect telling somebody to hire an engineer and bring in inspectors is the lazy answer. There is nothing difficult about what he wants to achieve and the value is not there to justify an engineer's study. For a couple of hundred dollars he can replace the ceiling joists with a superstructure that will be stronger than they were.
                  Thank you.

                  Comment


                  • #54

                    Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                    Originally posted by Jerome View Post
                    With all due respect according to the Ontario Building code which has jurisdiction here and the Canadain Building code that is exactly what he has to do. All the advice he has gotten here is great but changing the structure as he wants to is illegal without an engineered drawing and the approval of the local building department. As a facilitator for the OBC and a longtime construction worker, I think I know what id be doing but, I would not attempt this without an engineer's approval and neither should anyone else.
                    You should see all the buildings I have seen pop up non-permitted. Built from scratch. Permit required. I also don't see them falling down or collapsing. It is possible to build something without an engineer figuring everything out for you. Should every building be completed permitted possibly, but will every building be completed permitted, probably not.

                    Comment


                    • #55

                      Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                      FYI
                      When you need a building permit


                      You must obtain a building permit before you:
                      • construct any new building over ten square meters in area or place another structure, such as a mobile home, on your property
                      • make renovations or repairs or add to a building
                      • change the use of a building
                      • excavate or construct a foundation
                      • construct a seasonal building
                      • undertake work regarding the installation, alteration, extension or repair of an on-site sewage system

                      Contact your municipality if you have any questions about when a building permit may be required.

                      https://www.ontario.ca/document/citi...20a%20building
                      Jerome
                      Canada's South Coast

                      Port Colborne On.
                      CARPENTER noun. (car-pun-ter)
                      1) A person who solves problems you can't.
                      2) One who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data, provided by those of questionable knowledge. see also: wizard, magician.

                      Comment


                      • #56

                        Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                        I hope you don't tear it down and start from scratch as I'm interested in seeing what you come up with for a design and end up installing. It seems you have plenty of ideas.

                        Comment

                        • Thread Continues Below...

                        • #57

                          Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                          It was stated early on this sort of thing is possible, however some people are trying to say don't bother because you don't know what your doing without knowing what I know. I can fabricate something that will be stronger than an engineer would make and stamp and the material costs will be lower than engineering costs. Engineers try to figure out the minimum material to do something safely.
                          If you know how to fabricate something stronger and safer than an engineer would make it then why did you come here asking for input? Figure it out and post the pics.

                          Comment


                          • #58

                            Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                            Originally posted by John Bartley View Post
                            I'm just going to post this as an observation and an idea of what "I" would do if this were my thread and garage. This is NOT an encouragement to do anything.

                            In this part of the country, "making do" has always been part of the psyche and because we have small populations spread out over large areas, the resources are sometimes limited, including building inspections etc. There has traditionally been an easing of requirements around here for buildings that are not habitations, including garages. Most of the garages around here are constructed using home brew trusses and rough cut, unstamped lumber. The trusses are assembled using plywood webs nailed to both sides of 2" x ?" parts, and that includes my own garage here, built several decades ago and still as solid as a rock.

                            The OP's garage is not trusses however, so ....

                            In the case under discussion in this thread, what I would likely do is cut a cross tie piece the same thickness as the rafters, bevel the ends to fit "under" the rafters and cut it to a length that allows it to be installed about 12" or 18" above the current ceiling joist. Then I would create plywood webs, large enough to span from the end of the rafter at the eave (or as far down as I could go), along the new cross tie about 18" to 24" (whatever looked appropriate) and up past the tie toward the ridge an equal length to the length below the tie. I would install verticals the same way in order to create a torsion box effect using the existing rafters, new cross ties and new verticals and use the ply webs to spread the load across the joints. Once that was done I would cut out the existing ceiling joists (cross ties) to make my new headroom.

                            Again, this is speculation, but it's what I personally would look at.
                            I grew up on the prairies and saw and worked in many an old farm building with roofs exactly like the one OP posted. Your comment on 'in this part of the country' holds zero water IMO as independence is a trait found across the country.

                            WRT to your suggested approach:

                            How high the current ceiling joist can be raised is a matter of math, not guesswork: As you raise the level of the ceiling joist it transitions from being 'in tension' and helping to keep the outer walls from bowing outwards to 'in compression' where the weight of the roof acts as a inward force. An engineer can assess the strength of the walls, the pitch and weight of the roof, and most importantly (in my experience) the max snow load values for your region/area and then determine if, and how high, that ceiling joist can be raised.

                            Comment


                            • #59

                              Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                              Originally posted by cstephens2 View Post
                              WRT to your suggested approach:
                              I didn't suggest an approach.
                              Wood Grower likes this.

                              Comment


                              • #60

                                Re: Garage 'ceiling height'

                                Originally posted by John Bartley View Post

                                I didn't suggest an approach.
                                "In the case under discussion in this thread, what I would likely do is "

                                Saying thats not a suggestion is hair splitting on your part. Sorry. Not Sorry.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X