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Led Pot lights... still count individual lamps to total max 12?

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  • altiplano
    replied
    Originally posted by EFZauner View Post
    *lets have a bon fire" commander panel
    That's not reassuring. The house I've been in for a year has a commander panel.

    I've been trying to get it changed out with a service upgrade to 200 amps... first electrician flaked out, then the pandemic hit and I was distracted by other things In speaking with the current electrician, he seems good, but now I'm waiting for the utility service request to go through. More than 2 months waiting on them, apparently there's a backlog.
    ​​​​​​
    ​​​​​​​I can't get this thing out of my house fast enough though reading contents like that!

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  • EFZauner
    replied
    So... had an electrician replace the old *lets have a bon fire" commander panel, so we had a general discussion on wiring. This is for Quebec.
    1: If you have ONLY LED lights on a circuit, you can have as many as the breaker supports, even if the bulbs are interchangeable. There are thermal cutoff switches in the housings that prevent installing much higher wattage incandescent bulbs. If you mix loads then it is back to the maximum of 12 connections per circuits breaker.
    2: all electrical installations in a bathroom must be GFCI protected. Typically use one GFCI receptacle and run the rest of the lights, fans etc off of that. You can use a GFCI breaker in the panel but it is more expensive. Few do that.
    3: In Quebec all bedroom outlets must have arc fault protection breaker. So typically bedroom receptacles are fed of a Arc Fault breaker in the panel with nothing else connected. that is what I did.
    4: 40 Gallon hot water tanks are ok with 20 amp 240v and 12gauge wire. 60Gallon tanks require 30 amp and 10 gauge (assuming not excessive wire lengths)

    Ed

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  • drzaius
    replied
    Originally posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    The CEC doesn't require upgrades on circuits that are not being modified.

    Your local inspector may have other thoughts on the issue depending upon the situation, also you're in Quebec, the local codes are the law not the CEC..........Rod.
    Right. If your just replacing an old receptacle with a new, no AFCI is required, but if you add a receptacle to an existing cct, then it must be AFCI protected. As always, check with your local AHJ for the final word.

    Related, I have a friend with 30 or so rental properties & he's regularly buying & selling. When it's an old house with ungrounded wiring, we will install a bank of blank front GFCIs beside the panel to feed the old circuits in the house to make them safer. Most of those old houses have panels that you can't get GFCI breakers for. It's a good, cost effective solution.
    Last edited by drzaius; 01-13-2021, 07:01 PM.

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  • Rod Sheridan
    replied
    The CEC doesn't require upgrades on circuits that are not being modified.

    Your local inspector may have other thoughts on the issue depending upon the situation, also you're in Quebec, the local codes are the law not the CEC..........Rod.

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  • EFZauner
    replied
    Originally posted by drzaius View Post
    Here's what you do. Run a short length of BX or EMT from the panel to an outlet box and put an AFCI receptacle in it. Then feed the rest of the circuit from the AFCI. the run from panel to AFCI must be armored cable or conduit.
    yes I saw that in the code.... that means like 6 outlet boxes near my panel! because every circuit has plugs on it. Question: it is unclear if kitchen counter plugs need AFCI? They are mentioned in the exception. May be easier to put a sub panel

    Dumb question: Do I need AFCI on all circuits now that have a plug or only circuits that I modify? I think I read also something about if you change the panel but not the wiring, you do not have to add AFCI....
    Last edited by EFZauner; 01-13-2021, 10:30 AM.

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  • drzaius
    replied
    Here's what you do. Run a short length of BX or EMT from the panel to an outlet box and put an AFCI receptacle in it. Then feed the rest of the circuit from the AFCI. the run from panel to AFCI must be armored cable or conduit.

    Leave a comment:


  • EFZauner
    replied
    Originally posted by drzaius View Post

    Remember, that circuit needs to be on an AFCI if there is even one receptacle on it.
    Yep... sadly its an old commander bolt in panel BQH breakers.. no 120v 15 am afci breakers available. Even so, new construction must have huge panels as the AFCI are double the size! The panel/breaker kits sold at HD etc do not include any AFCI. Are homes bein wired differently now to put all receptacles on circuits by themselves so fewer AFCI breakers are needed, leaving lamps on non AFCI circuits?

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  • drzaius
    replied
    Originally posted by EFZauner View Post

    ah thank you... good to know... i will have like 1 plug (for wifi router) 9 led pots, 1 regular lamp outlet and 1 bathroom exhaust fan... so that is 12! phew!
    Remember, that circuit needs to be on an AFCI if there is even one receptacle on it.

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  • EFZauner
    replied
    Originally posted by Joed View Post
    If the only thing on the circuit is light fixtures then you can exceed the 12 count. You are limited to 1440 watts total load. You must use the maximum rating of the fixture for the calculation regardless of what lamp you are planning to use. If the LED does not have a replaceable lamp then use the wattage of the LED. If the fixture can accept regular bulb then you must use the maximum rating of bulb for the fixture.
    This only applies to fixed known loads. That means everything on the circuit has to be hardwired. No receptacle. As soon as you put one receptacle on the circuit, it is no longer a known load as you do not know what can be plugged into it.

    Use the actual watt rating of the LED not the fake equivalent rating they give for light output.
    ah thank you... good to know... i will have like 1 plug (for wifi router) 9 led pots, 1 regular lamp outlet and 1 bathroom exhaust fan... so that is 12! phew!

    Leave a comment:


  • Joed
    replied
    If the only thing on the circuit is light fixtures then you can exceed the 12 count. You are limited to 1440 watts total load. You must use the maximum rating of the fixture for the calculation regardless of what lamp you are planning to use. If the LED does not have a replaceable lamp then use the wattage of the LED. If the fixture can accept regular bulb then you must use the maximum rating of bulb for the fixture.
    This only applies to fixed known loads. That means everything on the circuit has to be hardwired. No receptacle. As soon as you put one receptacle on the circuit, it is no longer a known load as you do not know what can be plugged into it.

    Use the actual watt rating of the LED not the fake equivalent rating they give for light output.

    Leave a comment:


  • EFZauner
    replied
    Originally posted by drzaius View Post

    "where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.

    The electronics could be an issue with a CFL, especially when used base up in an enclosed fixture. Some of those ran very hot & just cooked the ballast in the lamp base. For me, the long warm up time was a big annoyance. And many CFLs had horrible color rendering, which gave a weird cast to some colors. There were good ones though.
    yes I am glad that CFLs had a short market life. Yet many of the led bulbs certainly do not last as long as advertized. The plus side is that you can put much more lumens in fixtures without over heating

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  • EFZauner
    replied
    well so the architect plan was to remove the exiting ceiling mount box that had like 4 circuits (den lights, stair lights, laundry room light, bathroom circuit) wired thru it and replace with 6 pots. So I did that... rewired it all into a box in a closet with access.... then the customer said, hey thats a lot of pots, cant we just have one ceiling fixture.. GRRRR..

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  • billh
    replied
    Originally posted by drzaius View Post

    "where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.
    ...
    Thanks, that makes sense.
    billh

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  • Inspector Ron
    replied
    Oops!. Seems obvious now, but I clearly wasn't cluing in to the gist of the original question.

    --Ron

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  • drzaius
    replied
    Originally posted by billh View Post
    What is the definition of "connected" load? Hardwired or I just know how many watts a bulb/device is?

    I agree that LEDs are proven and are probably the best technology available today. From a consumer viewpoint, I don't think the problem was the mercury but the fact that their electronics was unreliable, they took time to get up to rated light output, weren't dimmable and looked weird.

    billh
    "where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.

    The electronics could be an issue with a CFL, especially when used base up in an enclosed fixture. Some of those ran very hot & just cooked the ballast in the lamp base. For me, the long warm up time was a big annoyance. And many CFLs had horrible color rendering, which gave a weird cast to some colors. There were good ones though.

    Leave a comment:

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