Led Pot lights... still count individual lamps to total max 12?

[drzaius]

The CEC doesn't require upgrades on circuits that are not being modified.

Your local inspector may have other thoughts on the issue depending upon the situation, also you're in Quebec, the local codes are the law not the CEC..........Rod.

Right. If your just replacing an old receptacle with a new, no AFCI is required, but if you add a receptacle to an existing cct, then it must be AFCI protected. As always, check with your local AHJ for the final word.

Related, I have a friend with 30 or so rental properties & he's regularly buying & selling. When it's an old house with ungrounded wiring, we will install a bank of blank front GFCIs beside the panel to feed the old circuits in the house to make them safer. Most of those old houses have panels that you can't get GFCI breakers for. It's a good, cost effective solution.

[Rod Sheridan]

The CEC doesn't require upgrades on circuits that are not being modified.

Your local inspector may have other thoughts on the issue depending upon the situation, also you're in Quebec, the local codes are the law not the CEC..........Rod.

[EFZauner]

Here's what you do. Run a short length of BX or EMT from the panel to an outlet box and put an AFCI receptacle in it. Then feed the rest of the circuit from the AFCI. the run from panel to AFCI must be armored cable or conduit.

yes I saw that in the code.... that means like 6 outlet boxes near my panel! because every circuit has plugs on it. Question: it is unclear if kitchen counter plugs need AFCI? They are mentioned in the exception. May be easier to put a sub panel

Dumb question: Do I need AFCI on all circuits now that have a plug or only circuits that I modify? I think I read also something about if you change the panel but not the wiring, you do not have to add AFCI....

[drzaius]

Here's what you do. Run a short length of BX or EMT from the panel to an outlet box and put an AFCI receptacle in it. Then feed the rest of the circuit from the AFCI. the run from panel to AFCI must be armored cable or conduit.

[EFZauner]

Remember, that circuit needs to be on an AFCI if there is even one receptacle on it.

Yep... sadly its an old commander bolt in panel BQH breakers.. no 120v 15 am afci breakers available. Even so, new construction must have huge panels as the AFCI are double the size! The panel/breaker kits sold at HD etc do not include any AFCI. Are homes bein wired differently now to put all receptacles on circuits by themselves so fewer AFCI breakers are needed, leaving lamps on non AFCI circuits?

[drzaius]

ah thank you... good to know... i will have like 1 plug (for wifi router) 9 led pots, 1 regular lamp outlet and 1 bathroom exhaust fan... so that is 12! phew!

Remember, that circuit needs to be on an AFCI if there is even one receptacle on it.

[EFZauner]

If the only thing on the circuit is light fixtures then you can exceed the 12 count. You are limited to 1440 watts total load. You must use the maximum rating of the fixture for the calculation regardless of what lamp you are planning to use. If the LED does not have a replaceable lamp then use the wattage of the LED. If the fixture can accept regular bulb then you must use the maximum rating of bulb for the fixture.
This only applies to fixed known loads. That means everything on the circuit has to be hardwired. No receptacle. As soon as you put one receptacle on the circuit, it is no longer a known load as you do not know what can be plugged into it.

Use the actual watt rating of the LED not the fake equivalent rating they give for light output.

ah thank you... good to know... i will have like 1 plug (for wifi router) 9 led pots, 1 regular lamp outlet and 1 bathroom exhaust fan... so that is 12! phew!

[Joed]

If the only thing on the circuit is light fixtures then you can exceed the 12 count. You are limited to 1440 watts total load. You must use the maximum rating of the fixture for the calculation regardless of what lamp you are planning to use. If the LED does not have a replaceable lamp then use the wattage of the LED. If the fixture can accept regular bulb then you must use the maximum rating of bulb for the fixture.
This only applies to fixed known loads. That means everything on the circuit has to be hardwired. No receptacle. As soon as you put one receptacle on the circuit, it is no longer a known load as you do not know what can be plugged into it.

Use the actual watt rating of the LED not the fake equivalent rating they give for light output.

[EFZauner]

"where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.

The electronics could be an issue with a CFL, especially when used base up in an enclosed fixture. Some of those ran very hot & just cooked the ballast in the lamp base. For me, the long warm up time was a big annoyance. And many CFLs had horrible color rendering, which gave a weird cast to some colors. There were good ones though.

yes I am glad that CFLs had a short market life. Yet many of the led bulbs certainly do not last as long as advertized. The plus side is that you can put much more lumens in fixtures without over heating

[EFZauner]

well so the architect plan was to remove the exiting ceiling mount box that had like 4 circuits (den lights, stair lights, laundry room light, bathroom circuit) wired thru it and replace with 6 pots. So I did that... rewired it all into a box in a closet with access.... then the customer said, hey thats a lot of pots, cant we just have one ceiling fixture.. GRRRR..

[billh]

"where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.
...

Thanks, that makes sense.
billh

[Inspector Ron]

Oops!. Seems obvious now, but I clearly wasn't cluing in to the gist of the original question.

--Ron

[drzaius]

What is the definition of "connected" load? Hardwired or I just know how many watts a bulb/device is?

I agree that LEDs are proven and are probably the best technology available today. From a consumer viewpoint, I don't think the problem was the mercury but the fact that their electronics was unreliable, they took time to get up to rated light output, weren't dimmable and looked weird.

billh

"where the connected load is known" refers to a hardwired load of a known, fixed wattage. LED recessed pots, or wafer lights that don't have readily replaceable socket type lamps meet this requirement. A surface fixture that mounts on an outlet box does not, because it could easily be switched out for another fixture of higher wattage.

The electronics could be an issue with a CFL, especially when used base up in an enclosed fixture. Some of those ran very hot & just cooked the ballast in the lamp base. For me, the long warm up time was a big annoyance. And many CFLs had horrible color rendering, which gave a weird cast to some colors. There were good ones though.

[billh]

What is the definition of "connected" load? Hardwired or I just know how many watts a bulb/device is?

I agree that LEDs are proven and are probably the best technology available today. From a consumer viewpoint, I don't think the problem was the mercury but the fact that their electronics was unreliable, they took time to get up to rated light output, weren't dimmable and looked weird.

billh

[drzaius]

according to an electrician friend of mine, here in ontario you still cannot have more than 12 fixtures on a circuit regardless of the type

his speculation was that you could replace the led fixture with a regular fixture quite easily, raising the current draw of the circuit

omho, led are still unproven, years ago everybody thought compact flourescents(curlies) would be the way of the future and they would last forever, that didnt last long!!

Straight from the horse's mouth, from the CEC2018, Part 1:
8-304 Maximum number of outlets per circuit
3) Where the connected load is known, the number of outlets shall be permitted to exceed 12,
provided that the load current does not exceed 80% of the rating of the overcurrent device
protecting the circuit.

The Ontario Electrical Safety Code consists of the CEC 2018 Part 1 along with Ontario amendments. There are no amendments to Rule 8-304. Perhaps that was just that electrician's opinion.

LEDs are indeed highly proven. That doesn't mean that they won't be replaced in the future when something better comes along. Much research into alternative lighting technologies is being carried on now. CF lamps were a huge improvement over incandescents, there was always the issue of mercury, which was one of the reasons LEDs have been adopted so quickly. At the time, they were the way of the future, but no one knowledgeable in the industry suggested they would last forever (again, mercury).