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  • Re: Alternate energy

    Originally posted by Doug G View Post
    I don't know the answer to your question" So how much do you suppose that home based production will cost and how far will you get range wise?" but I'm willing to bet a beer that whatever the cost is today it will be lower in 5 years and even lower in 10 years and the range will be greater. On the other hand, unless global demand for oil collapses, I predict oil will be more expensive in both 5 and 10 years into the future.
    Glad to hear you are in favor of a gradual transition to renewable energy sources, would you agree the first step in a gradual transition is to slow down or stop expansion of oil production. Hard to put the brakes on your car when you still have your foot on the throttle.
    I disagree that we should "slow down or stop expansion of oil production" because I don't know that there is a currently viable option to hydrocarbons, whether for transportation or heat. And the world continues to have an appetite for more and more energy as the Third World develops. Do we say to the developing economies of the world that no, you can't improve your lot until somebody comes up with a new energy source? To slow or stop expansion of current oil production would adversely affect the world's economy, including Canada! Are you/we ready to accept a reduction in our standard of living on the hope that the new alternate energy technologies are ready to step up and take over? I'm not and I don't think any of the public purses (can you say billions in transfer payments due to oil royalties to most of the provinces and territories) that benefit from oil and gas production would want that either!

    Yes, let's get the universities and R&D departments of anybody that is interested, in developing the next best thing since sliced bread. Let's take all that money spent on protests and turn it into researching our next viable energy source.

    I don't know that we need to sacrifice our standard of living until something better comes along. The current crop of protests against pipelines and oil production in general wants Canada to stop producing oil...which will be replaced by everybody else producing oil so what will be accomplished? At least Canada has one of the highest standards of production in the world. Call us the best of a bad lot if you want...that's your prerogative but we don't need to go backwards to go forwards and reducing oil production seems like going backwards to me.

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    • Re: Alternate energy

      Les, what makes you think that there isn't a current viable option to hydrocarbons? Did you look at the websites posted by Randy and Frank? Also have overlooked the reason why even the big oil companies are looking at renewables as a replacement source of energy over oil? The third world demand for energy will be filled by solar and wind and much of it will be supplied by China. Have a look at this article https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8290051.html . Production of gasoline powered cars is being phased out http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/auto...ine/index.html , https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...d-cars-n806806 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...orld-catch-up/

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      • Re: Alternate energy

        Yes we will need oil and gas for a while that is for sure, with all the hoopla about solar and the new solar parks coming on-line, the reality is that less than 1 ½ % of energy used comes from solar panels.

        Even at the rate of growth we have now, it will take many years of building and placing solar panels to take a large share of the energy needed, plus a way to store it so it can be used when needed.

        Click image for larger version

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        Les Groeller likes this.

        Have fun and take care
        Leo Van Der Loo

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        • Re: Alternate energy

          Originally posted by Doug G View Post
          I don't know the answer to your question" So how much do you suppose that home based production will cost and how far will you get range wise?" but I'm willing to bet a beer that whatever the cost is today it will be lower in 5 years and even lower in 10 years and the range will be greater. On the other hand, unless global demand for oil collapses, I predict oil will be more expensive in both 5 and 10 years into the future.
          Glad to hear you are in favor of a gradual transition to renewable energy sources, would you agree the first step in a gradual transition is to slow down or stop expansion of oil production. Hard to put the brakes on your car when you still have your foot on the throttle.
          I agree with transitioning for sure. I need, just like everyone else to know what we are transitioning to before I would commit anything. Oil prices are like any commodity BUT if we find a replacement then I would disagree about the value rising. Why would it rise. Realistically it should fall under those conditions. Find the replacement for all of what oil does for us so we can tell those Arabian princes to kiss our ass and then I'll stop expansion of oil production because it would make sense. Right now that's not the case. I think you have to agree with that thinking today but maybe not tomorrow. BTW race drivers control the brake and accelerator at the same time with one foot. LOL

          Originally posted by Egon View Post




          Originally posted by Rusty View Post
          You see here's part of my point. Someone posts Hydrogen fuel cell without really knowing much about it other than they heard the term somewhere. Is it Viable? Can we actually use it NOW! Do we honestly believe hydrogen, or electric refill, top it up, stations are going to be free? Are they going to pop up everywhere across Canada? Maybe some day but to post it as a "today" option is without credit or merit. and is simply misleading IMHO. There is a lot of work and research to do before anyone can claim the gold ring.


          Here you go Rusty. You're questioning everyone's knowledge of hydrogen and its use as a fuel. I was merely asking if you knew how your gasoline truck engine worked as you seem convinced it has no viable replacement.
          Egon, Ddo you actually understand English? I'm posting questions about Hydrogen because I know very little about it and I've repeatedly said that. What part of that do you not understand? I'm NOT questioning anyone's knowledge, I'm asking them to share it with me and the group here.

          As to knowing how my engine works would it suffice to say my family won several racing championships using basically the exact same engine I run in my truck today and my father was a master mechanic in the racing and trucking business and both my brother and I worked for him and either one of us could have built you an engine that might cause you to crap your drawers. Now if you were a race car driver that shows the old adage of don't go judging the book by the cover which you just did and I returned the favour just as foolishly as you did.

          "Do it Right!"

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          • Re: Alternate energy

            I think the main transition away from oil required is the burning of oil and oil based products (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel etc.) for transportation, heating and power production, use of oil for lubrication, plastics etc. are not major contributors to greenhouse gases. Alternatives for transportation include battery powered cars and trucks using electricity generated from renewables such as hydro, wind and solar and hydrogen powered vehicles using either combustion engines or fuel cells. Per my earlier post, many, if not all major car manufacturers, (Volvo, GM, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW etc. ) all have plans to phase out production of gasoline powered cars, some as early as 2019. China, the UK and the EU all have plans to ban new gasoline and diesel cars. So yes the reduction in demand for oil may lead to oil prices dropping but then OPEC may just cut back production to drive prices back up.
            Doesn't the race driver controlling both the gas and brake with one foot also include the other foot on the clutch? Been a long time since I tried anything like that back in my Datsun 510 and 240Z days.

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            • Re: Alternate energy

              Originally posted by Rusty View Post

              I agree with transitioning for sure. I need, just like everyone else to know what we are transitioning to before I would commit anything. Oil prices are like any commodity BUT if we find a replacement then I would disagree about the value rising. Why would it rise. Realistically it should fall under those conditions. Find the replacement for all of what oil does for us so we can tell those Arabian princes to kiss our ass and then I'll stop expansion of oil production because it would make sense. Right now that's not the case. I think you have to agree with that thinking today but maybe not tomorrow. BTW race drivers control the brake and accelerator at the same time with one foot. LOL



              Egon, Ddo you actually understand English? I'm posting questions about Hydrogen because I know very little about it and I've repeatedly said that. What part of that do you not understand? I'm NOT questioning anyone's knowledge, I'm asking them to share it with me and the group here.

              As to knowing how my engine works would it suffice to say my family won several racing championships using basically the exact same engine I run in my truck today and my father was a master mechanic in the racing and trucking business and both my brother and I worked for him and either one of us could have built you an engine that might cause you to crap your drawers. Now if you were a race car driver that shows the old adage of don't go judging the book by the cover which you just did and I returned the favour just as foolishly as you did.
              Rusty, I get by with the English Language. Read your original statements.

              Seems your family is well versed in combustion engines but there is still no answere on how your present truck engine works.

              Racing engines --- Race car Driver?? Why would they come into question? Numerous different types and configurations. On the latest ones you may not really know how everything works.

              Even had the privaledge to have each hand on a shifter with the arm through the spokes to steer and the left foot was busy too.
              Last edited by Egon; 05-16-2018, 06:50 AM.
              Egon
              from
              The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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              • Re: Alternate energy

                Ok folks,

                This thread is rapidly becoming a personal pissing contest. Take it back to the original topic, leave out the personal verbal combat and stay calm or this will end.

                cheers, have a nice day.

                Comment


                • Re: Alternate energy

                  Originally posted by Doug G View Post
                  Les, what makes you think that there isn't a current viable option to hydrocarbons? Did you look at the websites posted by Randy and Frank? Also have overlooked the reason why even the big oil companies are looking at renewables as a replacement source of energy over oil? The third world demand for energy will be filled by solar and wind and much of it will be supplied by China. Have a look at this article https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8290051.html . Production of gasoline powered cars is being phased out http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/05/auto...ine/index.html , https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...d-cars-n806806 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...orld-catch-up/
                  I should have qualified my statement with "commercially viable alternate energy source" for transportation and heat. I agree that strides are being made in electric or electric/hybrid vehicles but to have the entire world transportation systems run on alternate energy is still a long way off. We need (and will have) a transition phase. No trucking fleet will replace their highway trucks with electric vehicles en masse. The public won't all "dispose" of their gasoline cars and replace them with electric ones en masse regardless of what Volvo, et al does in 2019. What about shipping? The volume of engines that need to be converted to hydrogen fuel or some other system is enormous not to mention very expensive.

                  None of the above is impossible to do but my point is that as the global economy grows and demand for fuel increases, increasing globally oil production not decreasing it will be necessary to support that growth. Third world economies cannot currently afford to power their economies solely on alternative energy sources. The option is oil and gas. Yes major oil companies ar engaging in alternate energy source but they are also investing in mega projects with tens of years lifespans. They expect a return on that investment so if you "follow the money"() there seems to be a long term bet that oil will be around for quite a while yet.

                  I don't disagree that work needs to be done (and is being done) to create an alternate transportation "fuel". However, during this transisition phase, (which may be 10-20-30 years to come to a commercial resolution) where ever-increasing amounts of oil and oil products will continue to be in demand, why can't Canada reap those benefits while contributing to this transition? If it isn't Canada, other oil producing countries will take up the slack in production so nothing will have been accomplished by preventing Canadian oil from being produced and used in our own country not to mention exports to the rest of the world.


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                  • Re: Alternate energy

                    I can't see anything Canada would achieve by shutting down the oil industry anymore than it is. I certainly understand those who might suggest doing so. I understand why they think that would help the planet but it won't help anyone anywhere in the world who works in the oil industry in any way at all. They will simply be out of work and unable to feed their kids. Is that really what we want? Isn't there enough starvation in the world? Now if you think I'm just being dramatic then offer up options and replacement jobs. That's what the entire thread is Supposed to be about.

                    Doug G and Les Groeller make excellent points above and I'm not trying to diminish them. I do believe alternate fuels will be found but can we afford them presently. NO! Phasing them in very slowly will probably work. Has anyone here considered the cost involved to switch to Hydrogen or electricity and maintain our life as we know it. If I wanted to drive to Vancouver or Palm Springs i could leave right now. If we closed the gas stations right now I'd be just as hooped as any individual with a hydrogen powered car. If you look at Hydrogen as a fuel consider it's quite similar to Propane in it's requirements for manufacture and dispersal to the public. Where are the refuelling stations? Who's going to build them? Who's going to pay for it? Can we be trusted or educated to know how to refuel? Maybe a new job for Hydrogen pump Jockey's. Maybe that oil field worker can hire on as a Hydrogen station employee. Hell he might even wash our windshield. This is looking better every second huh?

                    I can't see another fuel source of any nature on the horizon that can possibly replace what oil gives the entire world. So far throughout this thread the majority of comments relate to oil as a fuel. If you could replace oil as a fuel with electricity or hydrogen or helium or any other fuel source that would certainly help diminish burning oil to run trains planes and automobiles but I don't think you're going to be able to make polyester thread for example from electricity hydrogen or helium. If I'm wrong then educate me. I'm more than willing to listen.

                    Maybe we could come at it from another view point. What real good would another fuel do? Clean the atmosphere? Warm the planet with all that steam exhaust? Produce more water than the planet can hold? Change weather patterns? Create catastrophes like Hurricane Katrina? Has any one of you thought about consequences? Probably not!!! That's where the activists come in. We all know they've never considered the downsides. To them it's save the planet and to hell with everything else. Reality is.... all of the above detriments are fictitious, I know that. They are just pie in the sky nonsense at this point but could it happen? If you oppose that possibility, educate me but while you're doing that offer proof or don't bother, because your response will be just as fictitious and goofy as the nonsense I just presented!

                    Reducing emissions of one type to replace it with another might be very undesirable. It might also be desirable I don't know. Do you? Are the global warming pundits going to be happy with all that steam exhaust pouring into the atmosphere? We know they hate the exhaust coming out your tailpipe but will they LOVE the steam? What's the temperature of your tailpipe exhaust? What is the temperature of Hydrogen exhaust? Again I don't know. Do you?

                    Will we have to have great sources of Hydrogen to run manufacturing facilities like Toyota or Boeing or transportation giants like American Airlines? Will we replace Acid Rain with simple rain? Can our infrastructure handle that? The vast majority of bridges in the US are in extremely poor condition and many many should have been replaced years and years ago. Would a new weather pattern cause even more destruction? Will the planet be relegated to become a sponge? LOL,,,,,,,,,,I Could go on forever.

                    If we had the magic potion how do you get India and China and the Gulf States and Russia to join in? Who is going to control the spread of the magic potion? What War is that going to start? Has anyone considered that? It ain't as simple as stopping oil production or delaying an oil pipeline either. Just some food for thought!
                    Last edited by Rusty; 05-16-2018, 11:19 AM.
                    "Do it Right!"

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                    • Re: Alternate energy

                      You can’t make New Water, you take water and energy and break it into Hydrogen and oxygen, then use the energy stored in the Hydrogen, combining the hydrogen and oxygen and you have your water back.

                      With cars and trucks going down the road, you would not want that water just running out onto the road, but collect it and deposit it when refuelling with new Hydrogen.

                      To me, using a combusting engine like we do now is not the best way to go, to complicated and too many moving parts and wearing away with reduced output.

                      The use of hydrogen to form it into electrical power and drive electrical motors would be far better and economical, IMO

                      Yes we don’t have these products in a usable state for mass production and use, plus the infrastructure to make, ship and hold a very volatile product, in places like we have our fuels today,

                      Producing enough energy to break enough water down for use is the other problem, with oil the energy is already there, for Hydrogen we need to use another energy source to make it or else we are just going around in circles, and solar by itself isn’t going to do it for a long time, right now we are using oil products to make hydrogen, as it is the easier and cheapest way to make it.

                      Have fun and take care
                      Leo Van Der Loo

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                      • Re: Alternate energy

                        Just to give you some idea on how far we have to go to transition away from burning fossil fuels. This video is 6 years old, so some of the data may be dated and technological advancements since then may change the predictions somewhat.

                        https://www.ted.com/talks/david_mack...on?language=en

                        Nuclear is the answer, given the current state of technology. It is the only source that provides the power density our society is dependent on. Of course someone could stumble upon the holy grail of cold fusion, but don't hold your breath.
                        Last edited by Randy in Calgary; 05-16-2018, 12:28 PM. Reason: I stumbled on my spelling of stumble and wrote tumble.
                        Egon likes this.
                        Cheers
                        Randy

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                        • Re: Alternate energy

                          Check this video out.

                          https://www.ted.com/talks/amory_lovi...energy#t-42092

                          Cheers
                          Randy

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                          • Re: Alternate energy

                            I agree with what Leo just wrote and do believe that H might just be the fuel of the future. The problem is it is bound up with other compounds and getting it is the problem that needs to be solved. From the little I've read there are really 3 or four main sources of hydrogen - water, coal, oil and gas, and vegetation. Each requires energy to produce H so it can produce energy for fuel cells or combustion. So all I was asking is how much energy in to produce what quantity of H energy. On a small scale, no problem finding enough hydroelectric or coal or oil and gas generated energy to produce H energy. Then ramp that up by a couple billion when every vehicle requires H energy. What then? I'm sure it will be overcome but probably not in my lifetime. What about countries without available energy sources?

                            Other problem is even using electrolysis to split the H off of water, what about the abundance and availability of clean water (salt or chemical free water)??? Large parts of California is now subsiding, some parts by more than 6 feet. Great concerns now with land lying close to sea level (search for it) Too much water being taken from the aquifers for crop production is causing the collapses. The aquifer beneath Winnipeg is saline under at least under then west part of the city (not sure if the saline front has migrated)

                            Then there is the problem with the residue. Split the H from H2O and store the H and you have an abundance of O which will be present until the H is consumed. Multiply that by a billion. Worried about your cast iron oxidizing? How will our bodies use the excess O when this goes into world wide production. Same thing with coal and oil and vegetable matter - remove the H and what is left over - (carbon plus I have no idea what else - that is without the H attached) - useful or more waste to be dealt with?

                            But here is the biggie: Since oil, gas, and coal are sources of this reserved H energy, we will never be able to stop oil and gas and coal production. We will always need and consume these energy rich materials. No choice here. There is no free energy - always a price to be paid.

                            Some other things I've read is trucks and busses running on fuel cells have a limit of about 360 KM - great for city but not useful for long distance (thinking Manitoba where our closest large Canadian city, Regina is some 6 hours or roughly 600 km to the west). And yes I know we successfully produce and operate fuel cell powered busses in Manitoba.

                            Last but not least, it seems North American car manufacturers have given up on the car market. Chevrolet has plans to cancel the VOLT in the near future. From one of Leo's older references, Ford has come up with some behemoth of a ford pickup that uses the usual 2 fuels plus burns Hydrogen. Anybody see the picture of that beast with the huge supercharger sitting on top of the engine. Yikes... just thinking of future repair bills.
                            Nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems.

                            Glenn from Winnipeg

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                            • Re: Alternate energy

                              Thanks to Leo, Randy and Glenn. I'm certainly learning some stuff I didn't know. I hope we all are. Without spending too much time on Google I was able to find some costs and it was downright scary. Combined with cost of course is what is the residue and how is it handled? What are the downsides of having oxygen as a residue? Does that mean we need more CO2? If we do is that a good thing or are we going to excite environmentalists or others. For the record I don't know and that's why i'm asking. I'm not challenging anyone.
                              "Do it Right!"

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                              • Re: Alternate energy

                                According the scare mongers, the oxygen levels will go too low because of the earth heating up, as plankton will die off, (it is supposed to be making the largest amount of oxygen) so adding some will be good for all of us
                                Glenn from Winnipeg likes this.

                                Have fun and take care
                                Leo Van Der Loo

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