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  • DocFrankenstein
    started a topic I am not japanese

    I am not japanese

    I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I'm not even pulling hard - light medium force on the back stroke.

    This is what the blade looks like after splitting 12 meters of 5cm sequoia.

    If any of the teeth on the cross cut blade catch the edge on the back stroke, they break off. I didn't need the wedge - the wood was coming off by itself, the saw was not jammed.

    Is this normal? If it is, what exactly should I be doing different? I expected a steep learning curve or to snap the blade in half pushing it back into the wood, but not this.

    On the plus side the rip blade works wonderfully. I don't even tighten on the handle anymore.

    Attached Files
    Last edited by DocFrankenstein; 06-18-2016, 02:11 PM.

  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    Originally posted by Kayak Jim View Post

    And you chose to ignore their warning because.....?
    Because all they mentioned is that I can break the blade which was a thing I was watching out for, not taking half the teeth out if the cut is deeper than the blade of the saw

    Leave a comment:


  • Kayak Jim
    replied
    Originally posted by DocFrankenstein View Post
    It is supposed to be a 100% professional japanese saw. This is where I got it from:
    http://www.fine-tools.com/kijima-saws.html

    they did warn that this saw is not for beginners:
    And you chose to ignore their warning because.....?

    Leave a comment:


  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    Originally posted by Allegrus View Post

    This is why ripping and crosscutting with a saw intended for joinery like the Ryoba is not ideal, as we talked about in the other thread. There is a reason there are saws specific to various kinds of cutting operations.

    For example, if the wood has internal stress, the kerf can close up as it's being made; the two edges of the wood can pinch the back of the saw. Since the Ryoba has teeth on the back, they can catch and break off. That could be happening here, or maybe something else. if you want to minimize things that could wrong, it's important to use the tool intended for the job.

    Could the saw be a dud? Maybe, but teeth breaking on saws is a frequent result of saws being used improperly, regardless of quality.
    On a second thought, it could have also happened while sawing a longer tenon. I'll get it eventually.

    Leave a comment:


  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    Originally posted by Allegrus View Post

    This is why ripping and crosscutting with a saw intended for joinery like the Ryoba is not ideal, as we talked about in the other thread. There is a reason there are saws specific to various kinds of cutting operations.

    For example, if the wood has internal stress, the kerf can close up as it's being made; the two edges of the wood can pinch the back of the saw. Since the Ryoba has teeth on the back, they can catch and break off. That could be happening here, or maybe something else. if you want to minimize things that could wrong, it's important to use the tool intended for the job.

    Could the saw be a dud? Maybe, but teeth breaking on saws is a frequent result of saws being used improperly, regardless of quality.
    Yeah, I was thinking about your advice as the teeth were coming off. Was simply looking for a universal tool, not 5 specialized pieces. Money down the drain.

    Leave a comment:


  • Allegrus
    replied
    Originally posted by DocFrankenstein View Post

    I'm not sure I understand or have described what happens properly in the above posts.

    The teeth only break when I'm deep into the cut, on the opposite blade that's doing the work. If I'm ripping and I'm two feet into the plank, the cross cut teeth catch on the entry and break off. I haven't broken a tooth starting the cut.

    Do you think the way I start the cut has influence on what happens to the teeth 2 feet later?
    This is why ripping and crosscutting with a saw intended for joinery like the Ryoba is not ideal, as we talked about in the other thread. There is a reason there are saws specific to various kinds of cutting operations.

    For example, if the wood has internal stress, the kerf can close up as it's being made; the two edges of the wood can pinch the back of the saw. Since the Ryoba has teeth on the back, they can catch and break off. That could be happening here, or maybe something else. if you want to minimize things that could wrong, it's important to use the tool intended for the job.

    Could the saw be a dud? Maybe, but teeth breaking on saws is a frequent result of saws being used improperly, regardless of quality.

    Leave a comment:


  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    Originally posted by darrin1200 View Post

    I don't want to sound rude, but this sounds like you are cutting on the forward stroke with this saw, but it is a pull cut saw. If that is the case, then applying pressure on the forward stroke is what is weakening or breaking the teeth.

    On this type of saw, the teeth must contact the wood while pulling back, and be slightly lifted on the return forward stroke. This is comletely opposite of western saws, and takes a bit to get used to. I have a couple of small, cheep pull saws. I bent the first on, the first time I used it.

    No no. Not rude at all. I welcome any ideas and I'm very new at this, so I'm sure I'm doing at least a couple of things incorrectly.

    But I don't apply any pressure on the push stroke. In fact I release the grip on the handle during the pull stroke so that in case it binds, I don't break the blade in three pieces.

    I'll email the store, see what they think.

    Leave a comment:


  • darrin1200
    replied
    Originally posted by DocFrankenstein View Post
    It is supposed to be a 100% professional japanese saw. This is where I got it from:
    http://www.fine-tools.com/kijima-saws.html

    they did warn that this saw is not for beginners:


    But I'm not sure how to avoid the teeth on the cross cutting blade touching the wood as I pull the saw back. Plus, I wasn't using a lot of force. Because of the geometry of the cross cut teeth they get pulled to the side aggressively and that results in breakage.

    I need a ryoba of that size made for gajin by gajin.
    I don't want to sound rude, but this sounds like you are cutting on the forward stroke with this saw, but it is a pull cut saw. If that is the case, then applying pressure on the forward stroke is what is weakening or breaking the teeth.

    On this type of saw, the teeth must contact the wood while pulling back, and be slightly lifted on the return forward stroke. This is comletely opposite of western saws, and takes a bit to get used to. I have a couple of small, cheep pull saws. I bent the first on, the first time I used it.


    Leave a comment:


  • Egon
    replied
    On mine (don't know make) I think the blades broke off when pushing to hard and getting a little twist to the push?? I have not replaced it yet. It was a very nice cutting handsaw. The best I've owned.

    Leave a comment:


  • iamtooler
    replied
    I think you have a dud blade, it should not be easy to break a tooth off a hand powered saw.

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  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank D. View Post

    It sounds like you might not be starting the cut correctly. You should start with the blade up against your thumbnail, using it as a fence on the left side of the blade if you'r right-handed, with slight pressure against it with the saw, so the blade does not wander around at all at the beginning of the cut. The blade should also be fairly flat on the surface, the back of the saw raised maybe 10 degrees or so. The blade should not skip or jump on the wood at all when you start the cut, otherwise the teeth bang on the surface and break. I have worn out three Ryobas and none of them have a broken tooth. Some of my Dozukis and katabas are missing a few teeth, usually from hitting something below after the blade exits the cut.
    I'm not sure I understand or have described what happens properly in the above posts.

    The teeth only break when I'm deep into the cut, on the opposite blade that's doing the work. If I'm ripping and I'm two feet into the plank, the cross cut teeth catch on the entry and break off. I haven't broken a tooth starting the cut.

    Do you think the way I start the cut has influence on what happens to the teeth 2 feet later?

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank D.
    replied
    Originally posted by DocFrankenstein View Post
    Because of the geometry of the cross cut teeth they get pulled to the side aggressively and that results in breakage.
    It sounds like you might not be starting the cut correctly. You should start with the blade up against your thumbnail, using it as a fence on the left side of the blade if you'r right-handed, with slight pressure against it with the saw, so the blade does not wander around at all at the beginning of the cut. The blade should also be fairly flat on the surface, the back of the saw raised maybe 10 degrees or so. The blade should not skip or jump on the wood at all when you start the cut, otherwise the teeth bang on the surface and break. I have worn out three Ryobas and none of them have a broken tooth. Some of my Dozukis and katabas are missing a few teeth, usually from hitting something below after the blade exits the cut.
    Last edited by Frank D.; 06-18-2016, 10:06 PM. Reason: dang auto-correct

    Leave a comment:


  • DocFrankenstein
    replied
    It is supposed to be a 100% professional japanese saw. This is where I got it from:
    http://www.fine-tools.com/kijima-saws.html

    they did warn that this saw is not for beginners:

    Most standard Japanese saws are made of strip steel. After the computer-controlled cutter shapes the blade, the teeth are hardened with a laser treatment. The blade stays relatively soft and flexible. As Japanese style saws cut on the pull stroke, even experienced woodworkers, used to Western saws that cut on the push, can easily damage one of these saws while becoming accustomed to their use. If the saw binds in the wood, for example, the blade can be bent or cracked, although they rarely break. It is far better then, to learn on a cheaper saw, as replacement blades are relatively cheap.

    With the more expensive Japanese saws, the entire blade is hardened. They are manufactured in Japan for professional Japanese woodworkers for whom the saws have become a natural extension of their hand and arm. These saws are not "beginner tolerant." It is very easy to break the hardened steel blade, and this has happened often when people use these saws without having first taken the time to become accustomed to their use.

    For instance, about 15 years ago, I bought a 150 euro handmade Japanese saw. I had not become completely used to the saw, and in one second of inattention, broke the blade into three pieces. Because I had invested so much in the saw, I continued to use the remaining two-thirds of the blade for many years. But it was not an ideal situation, to say the least.

    Our warranty program and returns policy does not apply to broken saw blades. So we ask you not to use the higher-quality saws until you have gained experience and confidence on a cheaper model. We always try to steer our customers toward the best tools for the job and the person. Happy customers make our business also a pleasure. Someone who breaks a 100-euro saw five minutes after taking it out of the box is not going to be happy. Please take our advice on this point.

    That being said, the hardened-blade professional-level saws are wonderful to use. The speed, accuracy and cleanliness of the cut must be seen to be believed. It is an experience not to be missed once one gains some expertise in the use of these saws.

    Click the reverse button on your browser to go back to the previous page.
    But I'm not sure how to avoid the teeth on the cross cutting blade touching the wood as I pull the saw back. Plus, I wasn't using a lot of force. Because of the geometry of the cross cut teeth they get pulled to the side aggressively and that results in breakage.

    I need a ryoba of that size made for gajin by gajin.

    Leave a comment:


  • nnieman
    replied
    I've had teeth break like that if I was twisting the saw blade while pulling...but never that much.
    when I finally retired the first one I ever bought it has more teeth left than that one.

    i think you got a dud

    nathan

    Leave a comment:


  • Andre in Quebec
    replied
    Sequoia is not that hard.

    Maybe the tempering of the blade teeth was not done properly.

    Just a guess though,

    Leave a comment:

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