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Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

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  • Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

    I'm getting back to woodworking after many years away from it.

    I'm trying to plane some birch that has a knot close to the side resulting in some irregular grain.
    I'm using a Stanley #5 plane that is about 40 years old.
    I'm using Norton stones - 1000, 4000, 8000 to sharpen the plane iron.
    I'm able to get the blade fairly sharp. Sharp enough to cut some of the hairs on my arm.
    I remember from years ago, that when I would sharpen my Marples chisels I could get them sharp enough to cut every hair it passed over on my arm not just some.

    So with my plane iron as sharp as I can get it I am still getting tear out on the board I am trying to plane.
    I'm wondering if the alloy in the plane iron is not allowing me to get it sharp enough to minimize the tear out.
    Can anyone tell me if I am likely to get significantly better results with a new Veritas PM-V11 bevel up plane than my 40 year old Stanley?

    My other option is to buy a PM-V11 iron for my Stanley plane but the cost of this is about 1/3 the cost of a new plane.
    From what I see on the internet a bevel up plane will give me more options to deal with irregular grain so a new bevel up plane seems to be worth the additional expense. This of course is based on internet info so I am interested in getting other opinions based on experience planing boards with irregular grain.

    Thanks,
    Alan
  • Thread Continues Below...

  • #2

    Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

    after almost 50 years of woodworking, i treated myself to a veritas bevelup smoother and block plane, i just got the a2 irons but two angles for both(4 irons)

    both smooth end grain cutting boards very nicely, and regular planing is so easy compared to my old planes
    my shop is a beaver lodge
    steve, sarnia, ont




    1940's Craftmaster Lathe

    https://www.facebook.com/artistryinwoodca/

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    • #3

      Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

      Will Changing the Bevel angle on the present plane be an option.
       
      Egon
      from
      The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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      • #4

        Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

        A good excuse to buy another plane!
        Cheers

        Tim

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        • #5

          Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

          Is the chip breaker set as close as you can get it to the edge of the iron? Can you close the mouth on the plane? Are you taking fine cuts?

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          • #6

            Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

            A veritas bevel-up plane is nice, but it won't give you a significantly better result. The chipbreaker has to be CLOSE to the edge as Les mentioned to reduce tearout (1/100 of an inch...as close as you can while still seeing some of the back of the blade). PM-V11 does not sharpen more sharply than O1. It might hold an edge longer, but if you can'T get the blade on a Stanley wicked sharp, you won't be able to on Veritas plane either. Do you have a stitched cotton buffer? You can just place the blade at 45 degrees to the buffer (buffing away from the edge) with some fine compound (like LV green) for four or five passes while pressing fairly hard. This should make your edge super sharp and super durable. If you don't have a buffer, then just check the edge with your finger for a burr after each stone (except the 8000), and don't forget to go over the back of the blade with an 8000 stone to finish. I still use Norton stones, and they were my go-to for fifteen years, great stones. A well-adjusted and tuned chipbreaker will deal with difficult grain much more efficiently than a bevel-up plane. If you can wait a bit I can provide some links. A 1980's Stanley is not the best...but it can do a very good job with fairly minimal tuning, adjustment, and adequate sharpening.
            Frank
            SPCHT

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            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

              Originally posted by Egon View Post
              Will Changing the Bevel angle on the present plane be an option.
               
              Changing the bevel won't change much, other than reducing or increasing clearance and the ability of the blade to hold an edge.
              KenL likes this.
              Frank
              SPCHT

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              • #8

                Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                I have several Veritas BU planes and prefer them over my older Stanleys.  The BU plane lets you deal with tricky grain better and easier than the bevel down configuration simply because it permits changing the chip type by altering the bevel ground on the plane.  Lee Valley has a good write up on this on their web site.  Of course you need a Veritas plane Allan <G> and at least one extra iron; 50 degree would be preferred for your trickiest grain.

                Ken

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                • #9

                  Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                  Be brave; make your own bevel up plane and let us know how it works.

                  I’m in the process of building one. So far a section of leaf spring is about fifty % finished. It will be the old simple type that uses mallet blows for adjustment.
                  Egon
                  from
                  The South Shore, Nova Scotia

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                  • #10

                    Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                    For wild, irregular grain, a scraper plane excels at smoothing things out.

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                    • #11

                      Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                      For difficult end and twisted grain, slightly dampening the wood helps the blade slice the fibers easier.

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                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                        Originally posted by KenL View Post
                        I have several Veritas BU planes and prefer them over my older Stanleys. The BU plane lets you deal with tricky grain better and easier than the bevel down configuration simply because it permits changing the chip type by altering the bevel ground on the plane. Lee Valley has a good write up on this on their web site. Of course you need a Veritas plane Allan <G> and at least one extra iron; 50 degree would be preferred for your trickiest grain.

                        Ken
                        As much as I respect Lee Valley, the theory that a bevel-up type III chips produce a better surface than a bevel-down plane has been largely disproven. With a very tight and well-tuned chipbreaker (with a 55 degree angle), a 45 degree plane leaves a better, smoother surface; less tearout and shiner, clearer surface. I'm referencing the whole discussion about the Kato studies on industrial chipmaker use to obtain the smoothest possible surfaces. Many people have done comparative tests that confirm the results with common woodworking tools. Chipbreakers were not introduced for nothing, even if we have had to 'rediscover' their optimal use. Bevel-up planes were very popular between 2007-2010, and needed super high inclusive angles to get good results on difficult surfaces, but they are limited and IMO more suited to people who only plane very thin shavings (so who don't do much planing) or mostly end grain.
                        Last edited by Frank D.; 09-18-2020, 12:59 PM.
                        Frank
                        SPCHT

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                        • #13

                          Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                          Well, I sat on this one for a spell and, after much consideration, will offer the following: I have after many years never found a patent for a chip-breaker vice what it really is called: to wit a cap iron.  Cap irons were introduced to stiffen thin plane irons and that was done to conserve on materials and to make the hardening process easier and more consistent.  If the cap iron is flat enough and mates closely enough to the iron AND is set close enough to the cutting edge, the curved cap iron acts to make the effective cutting angle higher since the tangent to the curve of the cap iron adds to the bed angle and gives a similar effect to the higher bevel angle on the bevel up plane irons. There is some literature in the public domain where this has been more thoroughly explored in a reasonably scientific manner (if you will excuse that expression!)

                          There is a big fat BUT to all of this goodness and that is that the quality of manufacture of most of the older planes was no where near the calibre of new Veritas (and Lie Nielsen) and many of the survivors have been tinkered into oblivion over their lives.  I have some older Stanley planes that have not been tortured and they cannot be made (coaxed) to equal my Veritas BU planes.

                          All that being said, I use a combination of planes to bring things into order (scrub, jack and smoother in that order) and have a scraper plane for the really nasty stuff.  I still recommend the Veritas BU planes.  Easy as pie to set up and use and really well made too!

                          Some additional thoughts on the subject.

                          Ken

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                          • #14

                            Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                            You might try to first make sure your plane is properly tuned. Lots of info about that.
                            After its tuned get a new blade for it from lee valley. That was the best thing I ever did for my Stanley type planes.
                            Then if the damn thing still won’t cut get a new Veritas. I have spent many hours tuning up Stanley style planes but I now own most of the Veritas line and like the bevel up. Though a #4 Bedrock with a lee valley iron is just as good as i have ever used.
                            have fun.. bw

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                            • #15

                              Re: Should I invest in a Veritas bevel up plane?

                              In answer to the OP's question; NO.



                              Originally posted by KenL View Post
                              Well, I sat on this one for a spell and, after much consideration, will offer the following: I have after many years never found a patent for a chip-breaker vice what it really is called: to wit a cap iron. Cap irons were introduced to stiffen thin plane irons and that was done to conserve on materials and to make the hardening process easier and more consistent. If the cap iron is flat enough and mates closely enough to the iron AND is set close enough to the cutting edge, the curved cap iron acts to make the effective cutting angle higher since the tangent to the curve of the cap iron adds to the bed angle and gives a similar effect to the higher bevel angle on the bevel up plane irons. There is some literature in the public domain where this has been more thoroughly explored in a reasonably scientific manner (if you will excuse that expression!)

                              There is a big fat BUT to all of this goodness and that is that the quality of manufacture of most of the older planes was no where near the calibre of new Veritas (and Lie Nielsen) and many of the survivors have been tinkered into oblivion over their lives. I have some older Stanley planes that have not been tortured and they cannot be made (coaxed) to equal my Veritas BU planes.

                              All that being said, I use a combination of planes to bring things into order (scrub, jack and smoother in that order) and have a scraper plane for the really nasty stuff. I still recommend the Veritas BU planes. Easy as pie to set up and use and really well made too!

                              Some additional thoughts on the subject.

                              Ken
                              Hi Ken, I totally disagree with you on this.


                              While you may find a lot of people who have written that cap irons were designed to save the manufactures money, so that they could make the blades thinner;
                              For one; it makes no sense that they would save any money or time by making two irons instead of one.
                              For two; who give a crap why they were made, when the fact is that they work.

                              They don't work like a high angle blade.
                              They do not give an effective higher cutting angle.
                              They function similar to a cabinet scraper with a burr.

                              Blades are wedges, wedges spilt the wood fibers, the wedging action separates the fibers ahead of the cutting edge, causing tearing.
                              A low angle wedge creates more vertical force and less horizontal force, and there splits the fibers easy when cutting with the grain, but splits the fibers apart easily when cutting against the grain.
                              A high angle blade creates forward horizontal force and less vertical force, so it pushes the fibers rather than lifting and splitting them, making a lower quality of cut and requiring more effort. It is a compromise solution, less tearout but with a lower quality cut and more effort required.

                              A two blade setup with a properly set chipbreaker approaches the problem differently, it uses a lower angle blade to do the cleaner cutting and the close set chipbreaker to put back pressure on the rising chip to prevent the chip from tearing ahead of the cutting edge. It is not magic or opinion just mechanics.

                              Another part of the solution is a close set throat opening.

                              Most any handplane can be made to work.
                              My handplanes are 50 year old Record planes, hardly anything exotic and they can work as well as any other plane regardless of who made them or how much they cost.

                              Below is Birdseye Maple, Curly Maple, (some of it is baked) these were run through a supersurfacer, low angle blade and close set chipbreaker.
                              And below that are old references to the effect and setting of the chipbreaker.











                              Thin shavings from a supersurfacer.

                              Last edited by hennebury; 10-17-2020, 02:12 PM.
                              www.solidwoodmachinery.com

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