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1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

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  • #76

    Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

    Thanks guys.  I can hardly wait.  Can you make sure I get a matching pair of socks so I can wear them after the spindles arrive
    Karen

    http://www.woodkiltonstudio.com/

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    • #77

      Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

      Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

      Hey Brent,
      What sort of spindle top piece are you thinking of having done for the EQ? A standard width1.25" with just 8" under the top nut?

      I've got a mid/late 70s BER 2 which has essentially the same spindle form as the EQ from what I understand... just much smaller dimensions obviously (the straight shank part of the spindle top piece that fits into the actual spindle cartridge is 1" instead of 1.25" for the EQ I believe). Do you think where you are having the EQ spindle top pieces made would be able to make a similar one for the BER2?

      KT
      Hy Kevin, did you ever ask Advanced Machinery if they have the drawings for the BER2?

       
      Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

      http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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      • #78

        Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

        Originally posted by timberframe View Post

        Hy Kevin, did you ever ask Advanced Machinery if they have the drawings for the BER2?
        Yes, I corresponded with a guy over there who offered to make a BER2 top piece (he said they could only make the 1" and 1.25"... so no router collet adapter or stub top piece and I already had the 1", so no help there) for the very mundane sum of about $500 US... not counting the top nut, draw bar, spacers, or shipping. He kindly noted he could quote me prices for all those things as well "as desired."

        I nicely told him no thanks and asked if they could share the measurements they used and got no reply. Want to say I pinged him twice on that, so I'm going to go with a "no" on that one.

        I did take my 1" top piece to a local machinist that is not known for being cheap, but has a good reputation and he said he could make one based on shop time with an estimate of 2 hours (which translates to about $250 US not counting material costs). Only issue is he does not have a cylindrical grinder, so it would be purely a lathe job. I passed on that as well.

        I did sign up to take a shop class at night at the local JC here last semester with the expressed intention of having a go at making one myself, but it turned out the Wuhan zombie virus had other plans for us all and now I just heard that the shop teacher who knew how to use the cylindrical grinder they have (a nice one too) has retired. So I don't think that option is feasible now either unfortunately.

        Before the class got shut down for the semester I did have an interesting design discussion with the shop teacher in that he suggest that for the router collet adapter, that instead of trying to make one from scratch to use an ER collet chuck that was intended for a CNC machine as a starting point. He said they were common in 1" diameter shank and if they were made of a pre-hardened tool steel that we could likely adapt it much more quickly than making one from scratch. He said it would likely be unpleasant to machine, but since there wouldn't bee too much to do to it it wouldn't be a huge deal.


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        • #79

          Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

          Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

          Yes, I corresponded with a guy over there who offered to make a BER2 top piece (he said they could only make the 1" and 1.25"... so no router collet adapter or stub top piece and I already had the 1", so no help there) for the very mundane sum of about $500 US... not counting the top nut, draw bar, spacers, or shipping. He kindly noted he could quote me prices for all those things as well "as desired."

          I nicely told him no thanks and asked if they could share the measurements they used and got no reply. Want to say I pinged him twice on that, so I'm going to go with a "no" on that one.

          I did take my 1" top piece to a local machinist that is not known for being cheap, but has a good reputation and he said he could make one based on shop time with an estimate of 2 hours (which translates to about $250 US not counting material costs). Only issue is he does not have a cylindrical grinder, so it would be purely a lathe job. I passed on that as well.

          I did sign up to take a shop class at night at the local JC here last semester with the expressed intention of having a go at making one myself, but it turned out the Wuhan zombie virus had other plans for us all and now I just heard that the shop teacher who knew how to use the cylindrical grinder they have (a nice one too) has retired. So I don't think that option is feasible now either unfortunately.

          Before the class got shut down for the semester I did have an interesting design discussion with the shop teacher in that he suggest that for the router collet adapter, that instead of trying to make one from scratch to use an ER collet chuck that was intended for a CNC machine as a starting point. He said they were common in 1" diameter shank and if they were made of a pre-hardened tool steel that we could likely adapt it much more quickly than making one from scratch. He said it would likely be unpleasant to machine, but since there wouldn't bee too much to do to it it wouldn't be a huge deal.

          Ok, I have asked too and we'll see what   they say.   We all know that grinding can make things closer/tighter but the reality is we're not talking about a 100 000 RPM turbo pump shaft for a rocket engine.   The industry standard clearances between the blocks and the spindle is the better part of a full thou so things aren't beyond the range of a good manual machinist.   I would have tried the $250 chap I think.   I'll keep you posted with what I find.    
          Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

          http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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          • #80

            Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

            They're in the mail!

            Click image for larger version

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            Andy RV and kmcsmart like this.
            Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

            http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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            • #81

              Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

              Originally posted by timberframe View Post

              Ok, I have asked too and we'll see what they say. We all know that grinding can make things closer/tighter but the reality is we're not talking about a 100 000 RPM turbo pump shaft for a rocket engine. The industry standard clearances between the blocks and the spindle is the better part of a full thou so things aren't beyond the range of a good manual machinist. I would have tried the $250 chap I think. I'll keep you posted with what I find.
              Hi Brent,
              The impression I got from that machinist I took it to was that he really didn't want the job, as he was pretty vague about the actual amount of work it would take and the materials he would want to use. Most machinists I've dealt with over the years tend to be very detailed about those two items. I suspect one-offs like that aren't really his interest. He was very nice, so if I get really stuck I'm sure I can go back to him again. I tend to agree with you on the lathe vs lathe + grinding for the top part of the spindle. My shop instructor essentially said the same thing. That said he was pretty adamant that the shank part should be ground to spec though, especially for the one that would be the 1.25." It had to do with the surface finish on some of the materials he suggested I look at from the sounds of things... could be wrong about that though. I figured if it made sense to grind that to spec, I might as well do the whole thing that way. Now that I don't have access to the shop I'm definitely willing to be a bit flexible on that aspect though.

              What material did you end up using for the spindle top pieces you had made? I'm guessing you may have discussed it in the thread above, but I missed it if you did.

              KT

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              • #82

                Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

                Brent, fun fun. nice tools. My machine shop is yours when you need it.

                I am glad I could help. Any time brother.

                 
                Last edited by Matt Matt; 07-28-2020, 02:16 AM.
                Mark in Burlington, timberframe and 2 others like this.
                For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
                Sir Isaac Newton.

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                • #83

                  Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

                  Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

                  Hi Brent,
                  The impression I got from that machinist I took it to was that he really didn't want the job, as he was pretty vague about the actual amount of work it would take and the materials he would want to use. Most machinists I've dealt with over the years tend to be very detailed about those two items. I suspect one-offs like that aren't really his interest. He was very nice, so if I get really stuck I'm sure I can go back to him again. I tend to agree with you on the lathe vs lathe + grinding for the top part of the spindle. My shop instructor essentially said the same thing. That said he was pretty adamant that the shank part should be ground to spec though, especially for the one that would be the 1.25." It had to do with the surface finish on some of the materials he suggested I look at from the sounds of things... could be wrong about that though. I figured if it made sense to grind that to spec, I might as well do the whole thing that way. Now that I don't have access to the shop I'm definitely willing to be a bit flexible on that aspect though.

                  What material did you end up using for the spindle top pieces you had made? I'm guessing you may have discussed it in the thread above, but I missed it if you did.

                  KT
                  Well Kevin, I got the same story from AMS and to be fair I can't say I blame them.   They paid good money for the intellectual property.   So we are left with making our own drawings and perhaps Jack can host the drawings on the Wadkin Temple web site for posterity.   I would troll the internet, IG especially to see if there are enough folks around who are interested in a spindle and you could orchestrate a group buy?   If you felt like mailing it here maybe Matt Matt  could do drawings properly and we could do something here again?

                  B
                  Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                  http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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                  • #84

                    Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

                    Originally posted by timberframe View Post

                    Well Kevin, I got the same story from AMS and to be fair I can't say I blame them. They paid good money for the intellectual property. So we are left with making our own drawings and perhaps Jack can host the drawings on the Wadkin Temple web site for posterity. I would troll the internet, IG especially to see if there are enough folks around who are interested in a spindle and you could orchestrate a group buy? If you felt like mailing it here maybe Matt Matt could do drawings properly and we could do something here again?

                    B
                    I was sort of expecting that, but I do have to say their business model isn't necessarily a brilliant one. When you charge more than it would take for a one off job to be done locally, you aren't going to sell many, so you aren't going to be able to make much $$ off of that said intellectual property. Especially when it includes items that are very simple in nature (A spindle with no taper is about as simple as they are going to get in real terms).

                    I'll post in the UK asking if someone with the various spindles can post the measurements if they can take them with some accurate shop calipers or better yet some nice micrometers. The shank part should be well known/understood. I measured the one I have at the local school shop with three different sets of micrometers and came out with 1" dead on each one, so I'm guessing that isn't going to be any different. The questions I do have are how much space there is under the nut on the BER2 1.25" top piece and if that can be extended safely or not (if some are going to be made up might as well make them as useful as possible). I will assume the shank length didn't change as they were expected to be used with the same draw bar. That said, I did measure the space in the spindle and there is room to extend the shank if a custom draw bar can be machined. Something to think about at least.

                    I'm going to explore some local options and if those don't pan out I'm down for trying to get enough people together to do a group buy. I'm also looking to create a router collet adapter and eventually a stub spindle like you did for the one above... Thinking those might have to wait though since I just blew the machine budget on an older down-in-the-dumps, but very lightly used MiniMax FS35 which is going to be a PITA to get working and pretty again (just an educated guess on that as it doesn't look like a completely simple machine).
                    Last edited by KT_NorCal; 07-31-2020, 10:51 PM.

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                    • #85

                      Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

                      Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

                      I was sort of expecting that, but I do have to say their business model isn't necessarily a brilliant one. When you charge more than it would take for a one off job to be done locally, you aren't going to sell many, so you aren't going to be able to make much $$ off of that said intellectual property. Especially when it includes items that are very simple in nature (A spindle with no taper is about as simple as they are going to get in real terms).
                      Yes, I was quite surprised at the price they quoted you.  I thought they listed spindles for similar machines in the 320GBP range.  I really don't think anyone would pay that and it probably leads to machines being scrapped because nobody wants to get into them.  Hosting drawings somewhere public might help keep these machines going.


                      Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post
                      I'll post in the UK asking if someone with the various spindles can post the measurements if they can take them with some accurate shop calipers or better yet some nice micrometers. The shank part should be well known/understood. I measured the one I have at the local school shop with three different sets of micrometers and came out with 1" dead on each one, so I'm guessing that isn't going to be any different. The questions I do have are how much space there is under the nut on the BER2 1.25" top piece and if that can be extended safely or not (if some are going to be made up might as well make them as useful as possible). I will assume the shank length didn't change as they were expected to be used with the same draw bar. That said, I did measure the space in the spindle and there is room to extend the shank if a custom draw bar can be machined. Something to think about at least.
                      In the UK they call these the "loose top piece" FYI.  No doubt you might be able to tweak the bottom, but as you say there are standards for the top, and I was told the ISO standards used for spindle/tooling is typically H7/h7 which shouldn't be too hard to hit. As for extending the top that's really up for the discretion of the user.  The problem isn't really the about of room under the nut, just whether or not the nut using the machine asks too much of their machine!  . Stacking very light, well balanced tooling and taking light cuts all day long could be just fine, or you could wreck the machine in 3 minutes with a 2" block.  


                      Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

                      I'm going to explore some local options and if those don't pan out I'm down for trying to get enough people together to do a group buy. I'm also looking to create a router collet adapter and eventually a stub spindle like you did for the one above... Thinking those might have to wait though since I just blew the machine budget on an older down-in-the-dumps, but very lightly used MiniMax FS35 which is going to be a PITA to get working and pretty again (just an educated guess on that as it doesn't look like a completely simple machine).
                      The stubbie is very handy to have and in this situation was similar enough to the main spindle that it was considered as part of the main group for pricing etc.  

                      Lots of MiniMax fans out there, you'll probably make out pretty well once you've done the elbow grease thing!  Good luck!
                       
                      Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                      http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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                      • #86

                        Re: 1 1/4" Spindle for Wadkin Bursgreen BRS Shaper / Spindle Moulder

                        Originally posted by timberframe View Post

                        Yes, I was quite surprised at the price they quoted you. I thought they listed spindles for similar machines in the 320GBP range. I really don't think anyone would pay that and it probably leads to machines being scrapped because nobody wants to get into them. Hosting drawings somewhere public might help keep these machines going.
                        I asked why it was so significant and at least at the time it wasn't apparently off the shelf. They said they made them "on request" which made even less sense to me. Seems like the thing you would want to do in batches as you did above. Anyway, I agree in that people probably walk away rather than spend that kind of money which causes these awesome machines to get parted out most likely.

                        Originally posted by timberframe View Post

                        In the UK they call these the "loose top piece" FYI. No doubt you might be able to tweak the bottom, but as you say there are standards for the top, and I was told the ISO standards used for spindle/tooling is typically H7/h7 which shouldn't be too hard to hit. As for extending the top that's really up for the discretion of the user. The problem isn't really the about of room under the nut, just whether or not the nut using the machine asks too much of their machine! . Stacking very light, well balanced tooling and taking light cuts all day long could be just fine, or you could wreck the machine in 3 minutes with a 2" block.
                        Interesting on the ISO standard for these things. I'll have to file that away in the brain somewhere for later use. one of my goals is to be able to run tooling above the work occasionally, so in that regard some extra space could be useful, but given there is supposedly 3" of travel in the BER2 spindle (that is one thing on my machine that is so gummed up with ancient crud I haven't messed with it yet) I will assume the standard top piece was made its size for a reason. That top piece you did for the BRS though looks exceptionally tall. Maybe it is just because it is shown next to the stubbie... I has assumed you specified a longer measurement under the top nut.

                        Originally posted by timberframe View Post

                        The stubbie is very handy to have and in this situation was similar enough to the main spindle that it was considered as part of the main group for pricing etc.

                        Lots of MiniMax fans out there, you'll probably make out pretty well once you've done the elbow grease thing! Good luck!
                        I'm a bit nervous about the mini max... there honestly isn't a lot of detailed info out there on the older models. Most of the info I found was from users on sawmill creek or jumberjocks. They seem to be a bit uncommon down this way. They are perfect for my space issues though. As far as build quality goes though everything I've read indicates that other than some janky hand wheels it is an exceptionally well made beast. I'm getting things prepped to move it out of it's PO's workshop and was shocked to find out it weighs close to 800lbs. Going to be a pain to move, but it will be worth it.
                        Last edited by KT_NorCal; 08-01-2020, 08:53 PM.
                        timberframe likes this.

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