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Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

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  • Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

    Hello there!

    I've been fixing up this nice Wadkin spindle moulder and have hit a bit of a wall.

    It came to me, sight unseen, in the condition of the first photo below. I fitted a new 3 phase dual voltage motor and a VFD to run it as a variable speed machine. Gave it a bit of a clean and a paint job while I was at it too. It's fought me all the way but it's nearly there I hope. When I finally got it upright again and running I noticed that the spindle sounds very dry.

    I tried releasing the spindle and it won't budge. I've tried accessing the top bearing but there is a spacer and a spacer 'plate' attached to the spindle that wont budge to let me take off the quill dust cap.

    I've tried heating the spindle spacer and drowning it with WD40 but its stuck fast. I'm not 100% sure that there isn't something (for instance a nut) that i can't see that needs to be loosened or if brute force and ignorance is the way to go.

    I've spent way too long on this to end up damaging something that is impossible to replace.

    Any hints or tips at freeing this up? Really just want to get this finished so I can get back to making wood chips and saw dust again.

    Any input would be appreciated!
    Kevin

    Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

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  • #2

    Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

    Hey Kevin, looks great but bummer about these last steps. Spindle moulders are all about the bearings so you're wise to check them before running. Can you show a picture of the dust cover and spacer issue that is being stubborn?

    B
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

    http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

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    • #3

      Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

      Here's a photo of the spindle as it is.

      The cylindrical spacer and the flatter "plate" move with the spindle. The quill dust cover is the round plate with the screw holes and the hole for the grease nipple. I've removed the screws and it's loose but the smaller plate is trapping it in place.

      I'm not sure what the holes in the smaller plate are for. They look very rough which worries me a bit!

      I've managed to remove the spindle draw bolt as well but the spindle won't shift. I tried the trick which I read here of hammering out the spindle with the loosened draw bolt but there was no movement whatsoever and I was afraid of doing damage. I'll try see if I have a suitably sized bar in the workshop and try bash it out with that instead I suppose.

      Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

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      • #4

        Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

        Hi Kevin,
        I've actually got one of these BER2s as well. Mine is a 75 or 76 that sat since the mid 80s until i bought it a couple years ago and is in bog standard condition (for a US unit), It is only missing some of its guarding I'm guessing it originally came with. Still has its original flat belt and wrenches. If there is any way you could post some high resolution photos, either here or at some sharing site I might be able to tell if there are any modifications to yours that are non standard (beyond the motor obv). I'll attach some pictures of a 1" standard spindle naked so you can see what it looks like out of the machine. Also, maybe stating the obvious, but these use a straight shank and draw bar, so if you haven't already removed that you need to do that first.

        Spindle bearings on this are orders of magnitude larger than what you would typically see on a similar sized Powermatic or Delta, so they will be more expensive, but they are not crazy expensive like some of the ones in the big Wadkin industrial machines as they are somewhat standard if memory serves.

        For the size of this machine you would be hard pressed to find a more capable one so your restoration will be worth it. They are perfect size for home/garage shops.

        Kevin (in California)
        Attached Files

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        • #5

          Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

          Here is a photo of the top of the spindle without the spindle top piece in it.... just realized I had this as well.

          Also a picture of a BER2 next to a Delta HD shaper just for comparison...
          Attached Files

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          • #6

            Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

            Originally posted by Kevin Harrington View Post

            I'm not sure what the holes in the smaller plate are for. They look very rough which worries me a bit!

            I haven't had mine apart yet, but that plate is likely threaded and those are most likely holes for "pin" (or spanner.. i guess, depending on whose English we use) wrenches if you are talking about the ones I think you are.
            Last edited by KT_NorCal; 05-18-2020, 12:55 AM.

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            • #7

              Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

              Originally posted by KT_NorCal View Post

              I haven't had mine apart yet, but that plate is likely threaded and those are most likely holes for "pin" (or spanner.. i guess, depending on who's English we use) wrenches if you are talking about the ones I think you are.
              Thanks for that Kevin, this is great information

              I just noticed how low res my photos are - I'll put up higher res versions shortly.

              That photo of the top of the spindle without the actual spindle in it is very interesting. The brass (?) piece with the two holes is the piece that's puzzling me. It looks like a previous owner tried to knock it open without having the correct wrench and the nice round holes have been bashed to hell. What does that actually thread into? Can you remove the spindle without loosening up that piece? The one on my machine rotates with the spindle.

              You have a lovely machine there - very clean. Mine is from 1974 I think. The controls on the front box were all disconnected when I got it. The only thing that 'works' is the brake, I replaced the worn out brake pad with some thick leather and it seems to do a good job. I can reach in the back and stick an 8mm bar in through the brake assembly to lock the spindle. I'll only be using this for pattern work so won't need to be changing cutters frequently.

              Any ideas where I could get the wrenches (spanners ) for this? The pin spanner and the top nut spanner? I have the use of a friend's spanner from his Wadkin PK but he'll be needing it back

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              • #8

                Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                Originally posted by Kevin Harrington View Post

                That photo of the top of the spindle without the actual spindle in it is very interesting. The brass (?) piece with the two holes is the piece that's puzzling me. It looks like a previous owner tried to knock it open without having the correct wrench and the nice round holes have been bashed to hell. What does that actually thread into? Can you remove the spindle without loosening up that piece? The one on my machine rotates with the spindle.
                On yours someone probably tried to just bash it out with a drift or punch. If it is threaded a pin spanner of some kind is really what is needed. These machines were built with the expectation they would be serviced, so it's unlikely that it would take something more exotic to get it all apart. My guess is that it is part of the bearing retaining system for the top of the spindle, but, as I noted, I haven't taken the machine apart yet, so am unsure. Look through the old versions of the manual and see if there is an exploded parts diagram which may help. It has been a while since I looked a the manual so can't remember if there was a parts diagram that came with my US version's manual.

                Once you upload high rez pics I should be able to get a better look at it. Also post some pics of the spindle housing from underneath so I can see if there is anything non standard going on.

                If you have taken the draw rod out already, one suggestion might be to thread it back in until it is seated then back it off a full turn or two then tap with a solid face hammer (I really do mean tap... not hit). I don't know what the original condition of your machine was, but if it was allowed to rust by the previous owner that spindle top piece may be rust welded in there a bit. Its fit into the spindle housing is extremely precise, so any rust or gunk could hang it up pretty quickly. Also giving it a few squirts of some penetrating fluid every few days while it is sitting there can't hurt it either.

                Originally posted by Kevin Harrington View Post
                You have a lovely machine there - very clean. Mine is from 1974 I think. The controls on the front box were all disconnected when I got it. The only thing that 'works' is the brake, I replaced the worn out brake pad with some thick leather and it seems to do a good job. I can reach in the back and stick an 8mm bar in through the brake assembly to lock the spindle. I'll only be using this for pattern work so won't need to be changing cutters frequently.
                Thank you, I was lucky to find it. I didn't pay bottom feeder or "you suck" prices for it and it has been sitting since 1984 without being used so was covered in a fine coating of barn rust, but everything is essentially unworn (and it came with what looks like a very nice power feeder) and nothing appears to be broken or missing... so net, net it was more than worth it. The only thing I wish it came with and doesn't have is the mitre slot in the table. The original price sheet came with the manual and i want to say it was something like $2300 US in 1975 or 76 which translates into something like 13 or 14K today, so when you think about it that way even if your restore costs you a bundle you are still getting an amazing machine compared to what you could get for the same short money now-a-days. You will definitely be happy when it is all set up and finished!

                To your comment about all the front controls being disconnected... That make me think someone had been messing with it, or went to fix something started to take it apart and then gave up. You will definitely want to get those controls re-connected. Were they using it with a VFD and using a speed control off of that to vary the speed at all (assuming you know its background)?
                Last edited by KT_NorCal; 05-17-2020, 05:27 PM.

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                • #9

                  Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                  Originally posted by Kevin Harrington View Post
                  Any ideas where I could get the wrenches (spanners ) for this? The pin spanner and the top nut spanner? I have the use of a friend's spanner from his Wadkin PK but he'll be needing it back
                  No, I'll take pictures of mine so you can see if there are loose ones out there. The ones that came with my machine were marked Gedore, not wadkin bursgreen, so they might be able to be picked up second hand.

                  Until then.....

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_20200516_151451.jpg Views:	0 Size:	129.8 KB ID:	1284057


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                  • #10

                    Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                    Just thinking here, I've never been inside one. But that style bearing retainer ring is not uncommon. For pin spanner, there are adjustable ones occasionally even available at PA. Two arms and a hinge pin. They don't have much force. At work I would take a piece of pipe that fit inside the pin holes , file/grind two flats to fit. Weld high grade bolts with the threads cut off for pins. The pipe would be long enough to clear the spindle. Weld a plate on top and weld a nut at the center and attack with an impact.

                    HERE IS THE INPORTANT PART : which way would the spinning tighten it?

                    For the spindle,I would leave the draw bar for awhile, instead I would heat it with a hot air gun ,then squirt with your favourite brand of skunk pi$$ . As it cools, it should suck in. repeat everyday for sometime. After you have reached the correct phase of the moon, I would tighten up the draw bar and back off one or two threads. Then rattle it with an air chisel with a flat end. the vibration is what you are after.

                    I would be tempted to pull the cartridge out and work on the bench.

                    Good Luck

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                    • #11

                      Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                      Just wanted to add... that is a threaded lock nut. here it is in the exploded parts diagram. It holds the top SKF bearing in place. It may also provide some pre-load to said bearing, but unclear from the diagram....

                      Click image for larger version

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                      • #12

                        Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                        Is it possible to ''preload'' a sealed bearing? I assume only angular contact bearings are adjustable?
                        Rob

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                        • #13

                          Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                          This is the highest quality that the app is letting me use. Hope it's clearer

                          I've tried the method of tapping the end of the draw bolt but had no luck. (I even gave I a few heavy wallops out of frustration and still no luck )

                          So at the moment I have a 2" thick piece of Cherry with 1.25" hole in the middle on the spindle and I'm trying to crank down the rise and fall. It's actually bending the bar that the worm rides on away from the gear so it's skipping if I crank too hard. So I'm heating the spindle and spraying it with penetrating oil, then cranking down the rise and fall until I see the worm start to slip and leaving it there overnight. Rinse, repeat. No luck so far.

                          The rise and fall was stuck at the start as well and it was doing the same (bending the worm bar away from the gear) until one day it just gave a mil or two and I was able to get it loose from there.

                          I don't have an impact hammer, just a small impact driver. Thinking of putting a car jack under the draw bolt to try help it along...

                          About the spindle top locknut - is it odd that this is rotating with the spindle?? I can't get a good idea from the exploded drawing what it's threading into. Also does anyone know which direction it rotates to loosen it?

                          Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

                          Attached Files

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                          • #14

                            Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                            They are more likely a 62xx series bearings, a high capacity deep race ball bearing. Because they are deep race, they will take some axial loading. If there is preload, it's radial. That's governed by the fit on the shaft.

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                            • #15

                              Re: Wadkin BER2 Spindle Moulder (shaper)

                              Originally posted by Downwindtracker2 View Post
                              They are more likely a 62xx series bearings, a high capacity deep race ball bearing. Because they are deep race, they will take some axial loading. If there is preload, it's radial. That's governed by the fit on the shaft.
                              There is an axial pre-load it looks like... was staring at me in the face... it's at the bottom though. There is a "wavy" washer down there, so that top nut is probably just a crank down until it stops kind of thing.

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