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English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

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  • English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

    In anticipation of acquiring a Wadkin MA mortiser, I'm on the hunt for English pattern hollow mortising chisels and looking for any tips on where to get them, hopefully without breaking the bank.

    I picked up some vintage Greenlee chisels on eBay for what I hope is a decent price. They'll need a little cleaning up but appear in decent shape, and came with original boxes (some folks seem to get excited about that?). Total cost for 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" chisel and bit sets (pictured below) was $55US shipped to Detroit where I'll pick them up. Would they be considered an English pattern? Any good? Did I just waste $55US? I hope not, but figured at less than $70CAN it was worth the risk.
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    I looked at the Wadkin chisels from Advanced Machinery in the UK. Wow, those are pricey! With exchange, shipping, duty and taxes it looks like a 3/4" chisel and bit set will run over $200. If that's the best (or only?) option I can go that route but it would sure be nice to find a more reasonably priced alternative for English pattern chisels.

    Any other tips on English pattern chisel sources, new or vintage, would be much appreciated.


    Thanks,

    Eric.
  • Thread Continues Below...

  • #2

    Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

    Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

    Greenlee in particular, are the best hollow chisel sets you will find, in my opinion. Stands to reason, that the guys credited with inventing the machine would have, and make the best.
    the Japanese style look more precise, but don't have the longevity in actual use.
    Cant go wrong with Greenlee, Forest City, or the UK brand Clico.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

      Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

      there are only a few making the British pattern any more and no one in the USA as far as i know. Japanese(NH brand) make them for there production machines but we don't or have not seen that tooling here in NA Yet .so if your getting used tooling i would stick to NOS. Robinson /Wadkin /Sagar/mulltico/ clico/brookman all fit the DM with stock bushings . you have to make bushings for the Forest and Greenlee tooling drill bits or both. Robinson and Wadkin made the best tooling in the UK and some very long chisels "6 cutting up to 1" 1/8. very import not to use the diamond cones to sharpen the British pattern bits as they are for the Japaneses pattern. Star M in a good brand for the japan pattern and what Lee valley sale. You need the reamers to sharpen the British pattern and not all points fit all chisels but Clico sale them and could tell you.




      I see lots of old stock on ebay UK but all tooling will fit the DM if you have bushings made and really you need both patterns. I fitted a chuck to my DM and that made tooling easier. I just used a mandrel chuck i got from Lee Valley for $10.

      http://www.timber-team.com/tooling_a...tml?cPath=2_81


      here are the Japaneses NH British pattern bits


      http://scosarg.com/6mm-japanese-mortise-chisel-bit.html

      here is the NH site
      http://www.ns-co.com/English/html/pr...?product_id=15


      http://scosarg.com/leaflets/NH/TEST%20REPORT.pdf

      and here is a thread on did on them.

      http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-japan-290348/
      Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 04-08-2015, 10:01 PM.
      everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

      jack
      English machines

      http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

        Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

        Its an interesting read Jack , but I would not trust anything said by "scot and sargent" AKA Scot and scumbags!!, It was a unfair test, the clico is a beautiful chisel made to the highest standards but to a traditional old fashioned design, it depends what you want from a chisel. I do use both and yes i agree the Japanese pattern works best , but the clico is a very nice chisel to use on fine work, works much slower with chip extraction being the main problem but love the flat bottom holes with little cleaning needed. For me the japanese chisel is great for everyday work but the clico is for best work!!

        Hope thats of some help Eric
        Thanks Mark


        British Machines

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

          Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

          Hi Mark. You said before your disdain for scot & Sargent. Why are they seen this way or is that just your dealings? I do like the British pattern mostly for the bit fit to chisel and the longer chisel before the chip opening. The flat bottom is very nice to. In hard wood they do better than the pointy japan pattern. I would like to try this new pattern from NH as it looks like a cross between the two. I do like how the bit is supported at the opening with out as much of the flare of the British pattern drill have. This could make them weak though.




          Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 04-09-2015, 08:17 AM.
          everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

          jack
          English machines

          http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

            Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

            appreciate the discussion here folks, thanks. I have a Wadkin MF coming to me before too long and thought it comes with a lot of chains and chisels, I'll still need to learn a lot about this I'm sure!

            B
            Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

            Comment

            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

              Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

              Well, it looks as though that drill bit redesign may solve the failure issues with the Japanese style single flute that is so common. The Japanese style definitely cuts a cleaner sided mortise, but the bit has been their Achilles heel. Time will tell. Looks like they might be coming around to our way of thinking

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                I have the same feelings as Mark about S & S. They are right on my doorstep but I would rather deal with firms further up country.

                They generally:
                Don't know their own equipment
                Don't have the stock
                Charge like a rhino for mediocre quality
                Have a shocking attitude to service and people who walk through the door

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                  Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                  thanks Mark and Will for the heads up on S&S. Mark the test is at slow speed ideal for the japan pattern / the British pattern cuts cleaner at high speed i think. so the chip clogging is off. Have a hard time finding a source for the better NH bits and only founf S&S!! is there a good online source for chisels in the UK for us Canadians that is more on the up and up?
                  everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                  jack
                  English machines

                  http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                    Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                    Hi Jack, I think william has summed up S & S perfectly , many woodworkers I know hate them, very poor service. For a example, A good friend of mine brought a brand new scm minimax saw bench from them ( yes I know mad, says he dont like old british machines because to much trouble ) , anyway s & s delivered it , my friend unpacked it and had a electrician wirer it up, did not work so rang s & s but they did not want to know !!!, mean while the electrician traced the problem to a faulty switch on the machine, all s & s would do was send a new switch !!!, could not even be bothered to send out a engineer to fix a brand new machine !!. I say no more!!!

                    I will look out for some NH bits over here for you, to be honest have not thought much about chisels recently but the new ones do look interesting and would like to try them out. I have had a few clico chisels fail in the past mainly due to poor chip extraction and building up of heat but as you say they are better in hardwoods . I will look at the speeds on my mortisers to see what I am running them at.
                    Thanks Mark


                    British Machines

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                      Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                      I've always had great service over here from:
                      Gerrymet (mainly used them for bands) http://www.gerrymet.co.uk/acatalog/M...ls___Bits.html
                      Ernest Bennett (great saw doctors) http://www.ebsaws.com/
                      Whitehill (spindle tooling) http://www.whitehill-tools.com/
                      Wealden (drilling, router, spindle) http://www.wealdentool.com/

                      Comment

                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                        Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                        Are the reamers to sharpen the Wadkin pattern bits available in North America? My DM came with some of these, Lee Valley Japanese and a couple Greenlee. Not sure what to use on the Greenlee either.

                        The DM manual shows some files for the auger. Any idea where to access these?

                        Lee Valley sells a chuck to replace the auger bushings. Would this work on the DM? Is something else better?

                        Thanks,
                        Joe

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                        • #13

                          Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                          Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                          http://www.axminster.co.uk/morticing...sharpening-set

                          eBay only for old stock. just a japan pattern is all you can get new
                          Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 10-08-2015, 08:44 AM.
                          everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                          jack
                          English machines

                          http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                            Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                            Joe, I got my auger bit files from MSC I think. I just googled "auger bit files" , and several sites popped up- Lee Valley, and Lie-Nielsen were the top two hits.
                            Regarding the bushings, it may have had good thought in engineering, but they are a poor idea in practice in my opinion. My first mortiser was a small J.D. Wallace that used a Jacobs chuck. I sold it and got a bigger Oliver 91-D, that used the collet system. I have since sold that as well, and now have the Whitney auto-feed, and a Yates -American manual machine, which both came equipped with the collet system as well. This past winter I tore the Yates apart and had my machinist fit it with the Jacobs chuck.
                            I much prefer the Jacobs chuck style!
                            I hope to convert the Whitney soon as well, and be done with these collets.
                            Finding original manufacturer sharpening tooling for the chisels will be hard I think. eBay, Clist, OWWM for used, with a LOT of patience, and deep pockets.
                            Forest City appears to be offering tooling again, you could check with them.
                            I don't even look any more, I use alternate methods.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                              Re: English Pattern Hollow Mortising Chisels - Where to get 'em?

                              Pete i have both Greenlee and Forrest and there not the same as the English sets Bits so be careful of american stock fitting English makers chisel. there not the same size for the pilot point and neither is the angle when i tried the English Clilco on them.. I fit the My DM with a chuck and did not like that it slipped but got it here ,fit right in the DM. Joe have you tried all the set you have as its looks like some have already be cut down for a chuck?


                              http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/p...072,45939&ap=1
                              Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 10-08-2015, 10:06 AM.
                              everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                              jack
                              English machines

                              http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                              Comment

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