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  • #16

    Re: cleaning hvlp gun

    Paul,

    Yours is the best explanation I've yet to hear for the argument to stay away from using hot water to clean waterborne finish from spraying equipment. Like you, one of my guns is fed fluid through a line, but instead of it being a pump, mine has a pressure pot.

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    And, Rusty, that Youtube video you shared with us was certainly one of the best videos I've yet seen on cleaning guns.


    Thanks for sharing this invaluable info with us, gents!

    Marty

    Originally posted by Paul O in Paris View Post

    Ryan, waterbased finishes have made a quantum leap since I started spraying them, but I still don't use hot water for cleaning.
    Waterbased starts to cure when the carrier loses full contact with the resin particles. This will happen to some extent if you leave a can for a long time and all the solids settle to the bottom thus isolating themselves from the carrier. There is a witches brew of chemicals in that liquid designed to delay curing until a specific set of conditions are met, so you can warm up a can of well stirred finish and it won't start to cure because the resins are surrounded by all these goodies in the carrier. Spray the finish on a surface and the thin layer doesn't have the same properties as a can full and the resins become separated from the carrier (as it evaporates) and start the amalgamation process. Heat will speed up this process, so the way it was explained to me was that flushing hot water will remove most of the carrier and will accelerate the curing of any resin that's left. It's probably not a big deal in a cup gun and regularly taking it apart and brushing it out will ensure there are no such problems. However, I have a 25ft line from my pressure pot to the gun and a 15ft line form my Kremlin pump to the gun and as I haven't come across any brushes that would work for those lengths I don't take any chances.
    But I digress and am getting too far away from the OP's questions
    Paul
    Rusty likes this.
    All the best,

    Marty

    President of Kingston Wood Artisans https://kwoodartca.wordpress.com/

    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club

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    • #17

      Re: cleaning hvlp gun

      "Butyl Cellusolve may be hard to get but Acetone is available at some hardware stores and can certainly be found at at the automotive stores that sell paints."

      Paul I was surprised to find the Butyl Cellusolve on the shelf at one the SW stores I use, the store in Milton stock the Kem Aqua line and are great for when I need a single gallon quick. Not all stores do this but might be worth a call to a local store. It can also be used as a reducer in small quantities, found out this by reading the Product PDF.

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      • #18

        Re: cleaning hvlp gun

        Originally posted by John JMK View Post
        "Butyl Cellusolve may be hard to get but Acetone is available at some hardware stores and can certainly be found at at the automotive stores that sell paints."

        Paul I was surprised to find the Butyl Cellusolve on the shelf at one the SW stores I use, the store in Milton stock the Kem Aqua line and are great for when I need a single gallon quick. Not all stores do this but might be worth a call to a local store. It can also be used as a reducer in small quantities, found out this by reading the Product PDF.
        Well stated John. Thanks for that endorsement of reading the product info as Paul suggested. It's one of those times when it's best to read the instructions isn't it?
        "Do it Right!"

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        • #19

          Re: cleaning hvlp gun

          Originally posted by Rusty View Post

          Well stated John. Thanks for that endorsement of reading the product info as Paul suggested. It's one of those times when it's best to read the instructions isn't it?
          I agree. Paul's post was surprising to me - that's the first I've heard that hot water could be a problem. I'm happy to be wrong, but since my experience is to the contrary, I've decided to look into it a bit first. I've read all the data sheets for the ml Campbell agualente that I usually spray, and can't find any mention of hot water good or bad. So I've written to the company directly. I'll post when I get a response.

          Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, I did find another finish company. Becca, that does advocate using hot water:

          .Water is the best base fluid for cleaning waterborne paint spray guns. Water is able to properly rinse the remaining paint from the fluid passageways without changing the chemical makeup of the remaining paint that dries on the surface of the spray gun. This results in less mess to clean up later. There are two additions to water that aid in speeding up the gun cleaning process and result in a cleaner and longer lasting finish on the spray gun.
          • Heat
          • Cleaning Solutions

          In the same way hot water is more effective in cleaning dishes or washing clothes, or a latex paint brush it also helps provide a faster and cleaner finish when cleaning waterborne spray guns. Heated water has better results due to the sped up process of chemical reactions and molecular movement that takes place in hot water. The process of energizing molecules will speed up molecular movement and chemical reactions occur at an accelerated pace. Heat is an effective form of energy that can be used to speed up the molecular movement in water. As the molecules in water are heated they begin to move faster and bump into surrounding molecules at a quicker pace resulting in chemical reactions occurring at a quicker rate. In cleaning spray guns the faster movement in heated water causes remaining paint existing on the spray gun to be removed by the water faster and more effectively. The result is a cleaner spray gun with less scrubbing time involved.
          http://www.beccainc.com/cleaning-wat...int-spray-gun/

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          • #20

            Re: cleaning hvlp gun

            Thanks for that too Ryan. I will look forward to your future comments when Becca responds. I have no clue who they are but that doesn't mean much LOL! It's a bit and I do mean a bit, confusing the way they word their info and refer to the fluid passageways and then talk sbout the surface of the spray gun. How do you other guys read that. Surely they can't mean the outside surface of the gun as opposed to the inside can they? That wouldn't make much sense would it?
            "Do it Right!"

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            • #21

              Re: cleaning hvlp gun

              It appears that Becca doesn't sell finishes but cleaning products and the hot water works with there cleaning product and specialized cleaning system.
              Unfortunately when I have used ML Campbell WB products in the past and had issues I found there product support team next to useless. Maybe you'll have better luck now that they are owned by Sherwin Williams but still operate as a separate entity. Most companies recommend warm water not hot as you will find in the ML Campbell Agualente PDS.

              https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPD...S&prodno=0 35777318744&lang=2
              Last edited by John JMK; 11-10-2018, 02:57 PM.

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              • #22

                Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                Although I have never used waterbourne products I was told by my ML Campbell dealer that if I was to use waterborne my final flush should be with a lacquer thinner after the warm water. I use a Kremlin system.

                Brian
                If your dreams don't scare you, you are not dreaming big enough

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                • #23

                  Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                  Originally posted by John JMK View Post
                  It appears that Becca doesn't sell finishes but cleaning products and the hot water works with there cleaning product and specialized cleaning system.
                  Unfortunately when I have used ML Campbell WB products in the past and had issues I found there product support team next to useless. Maybe you'll have better luck now that they are owned by Sherwin Williams but still operate as a separate entity. Most companies recommend warm water not hot as you will find in the ML Campbell Agualente PDS.

                  https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPD...S&prodno=0 35777318744&lang=2
                  Thanks John. I had been reading that, and I noticed it did recommend "warm water", but the nit picky side of me is stuck on the fact that it says nothing about hot water yay or nay.

                  I guess the real thing for me is the fact that I've been using hot water for a number of years now, and it's simply worked great. If using hot water causes problems, then why haven't I had any?

                  I'm not assuming my experience is definitive or anything, it's just a head scratcher moment - almost like when someone comes along and suddenly tells you something like "tobogganing is unsafe for children" and you're like "huh?!? I've tobogganed all my life! What do you mean it's not safe!?"

                  I can see a degree of sense in what Paul said - about heat causing the finish to solidify. I mean, that does make sense in a way.

                  But I wonder about the issue of flow?

                  That is, take an egg for example. Hot water can also cook an egg. CRack an egg in a bowl, add in some boiling water, give it a minute, and that egg will be poached. But the important part there is "give it a minute". The egg gets to sit there for a couple minutes in the hot water so that the cooking can happen. But what if I held that egg under a running flow of hot water? It wouldn't cook at all, of course, it would simply be washed away.

                  Now, I know there's a difference between WB finish and eggs, of course, but isn't the principle the same? Doesn't the flow of the hot water wash away the finish residue long before it gets a chance to solidify?

                  I do hope the ML Campbell people write me back.

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                  • #24

                    Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                    Originally posted by callee View Post

                    I'm happy to be wrong, but since my experience is to the contrary, I've decided to look into it a bit first.

                    So I've written to the company directly. I'll post when I get a response.

                    Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, I did find another finish company. Becca, that does advocate using hot water:
                    Really? You sure seem to be putting out a lot of time and effort to prove you are right. To me there is no "right" or "wrong" in this, just good operating practice and not so good operating practice. Looking at it as right or wrong is rather immature IMO and reminds me of my days at university in the late sixties when hand scrawled posters went up inviting us to a "mass debate" on some burning topic of the day. I went to two and got fed up with self righteous,bright eyed zealots who were full of their own self importance spouting all kinds of crap and then branding anyone who stood up and questioned them or expressed any kind of contrary opinion as being totally wrong, a communist, a fascist, uninformed, unaware etc etc. I had no time for "mass debaters" then and I have not changed my opinion of people with that behaviour.

                    If you are using Agualente then you are hardly operating at the leading edge of waterbased technology as it is probably one of the worst products out there. ML Campbell has a long history of substandard waterbased finishes and has now resorted to trying to piggyback on their successful solvent products by introducing Magnamax H2O.
                    Here's a link to the Agualente PDI, check the section "Equipment Clean Up"
                    It reads


                    Equipment Clean Up



                    All equipment should be flushed with warm water or water/alcohol immediately after use.



                    A subsequent flush with alcohol will ensure all moisture is removed from equipment.

                    https://distributorserviceinc.com/PD...Lacquer-PI.pdf

                    As John pointed out, Becca is not a finish supplier. I waded through their website and they market products for cleaning equipment used in industrial painting. I was not impressed as it seemed like a snake oil sales pitch. What really got me was the typo in the banner title on the linked to page. No reference to furniture finishes. I guess you didn't do your due diligence before posting.

                    Anyway, that's enough from me

                    Paul

                    Last edited by Paul O in Paris; 11-10-2018, 07:22 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25

                      Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                      Originally posted by Paul O in Paris View Post

                      Really? You sure seem to be putting out a lot of time and effort to prove you are right. To me there is no "right" or "wrong" in this, just good operating practice and not so good operating practice. Looking at it as right or wrong is rather immature IMO and reminds me of my days at university in the late sixties when hand scrawled posters went up inviting us to a "mass debate" on some burning topic of the day. I went to two and got fed up with self righteous,bright eyed zealots who were full of their own self importance spouting all kinds of crap and then branding anyone who stood up and questioned them or expressed any kind of contrary opinion as being totally wrong, a communist, a fascist, uninformed, unaware etc etc. I had no time for "mass debaters" then and I have not changed my opinion of people with that behaviour.

                      If you are using Agualente then you are hardly operating at the leading edge of waterbased technology as it is probably one of the worst products out there. ML Campbell has a long history of substandard waterbased finishes and has now resorted to trying to piggyback on their successful solvent products by introducing Magnamax H2O.
                      Here's a link to the Agualente PDI, check the section "Equipment Clean Up"
                      It reads


                      Equipment Clean Up



                      All equipment should be flushed with warm water or water/alcohol immediately after use.



                      A subsequent flush with alcohol will ensure all moisture is removed from equipment.

                      https://distributorserviceinc.com/PD...Lacquer-PI.pdf

                      As John pointed out, Becca is not a finish supplier. I waded through their website and they market products for cleaning equipment used in industrial painting. I was not impressed as it seemed like a snake oil sales pitch. What really got me was the typo in the banner title on the linked to page. No reference to furniture finishes. I guess you didn't do your due diligence before posting.

                      Anyway, that's enough from me

                      Paul

                      Paul! I think you're reading into my post a tone that reflects your opinion of me, rather than the tone I actually had. If someone suddenly told you that something you'd done for years was a problem, I'm sure you'd at least explore the issue a bit before changing your habit. So yeah, I'm checking it out a bit. I think that just makes me normal, I don't think that makes me a "self righteous,bright eyed zealots who were full of their own self importance spouting all kinds of crap," though it's not surprising to me that you'd compare me to them. Most people here aren't aware of the nasty, hurtful things you've said to me in PMs [correction: meant to say "since deleted posts"] before. It was mean enough, it's the only time I've every considered quitting this place. I've never quite been able to figure out why you dislike me, especially since I've never felt anything for you but respect for your expertise and appreciation for your contributions. But, live and let live I guess.
                      Last edited by callee; 11-13-2018, 08:28 PM. Reason: correction

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                      • #26

                        Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                        Ryan, I wonder what the peanut gallery would think of your comments if Rusty had said them? Think about it for a second.
                        Matt Matt likes this.
                        "Do it Right!"

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                        • #27

                          Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                          Originally posted by Rusty View Post
                          Ryan, I wonder what the peanut gallery would think of your comments if Rusty had said them? Think about it for a second.
                          This isn't about you , Donald.
                          Yeti likes this.
                          Cheers
                          Randy

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                          • #28

                            Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                            Originally posted by Randy in Calgary View Post

                            This isn't about you , Donald.
                            Couldn't resist apparently.

                            As messages go it must be a private one huh?
                            Matt Matt and Randy in Calgary like this.
                            "Do it Right!"

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                            • #29

                              Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                              Back on topic, I just got the following email from ML Campbell:

                              "Hot" water would not be recommend as it can bake the coating depending on
                              how hot. We recommend simply warm water or room temperature water is
                              fine. Even 50/50 mix water and denatured alcohol is very effective for
                              cleaning waterbornes. The carrier in a waterborne is water so yes hot
                              water will wash it away!

                              Thank you for your inquiry,
                              M.L. Campbell Technical Services
                              1-800-364-1359 option 1
                              techservices@mlcampbell.com
                              Well, that's an eye opener! Learn something new every day.

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                              • #30

                                Re: cleaning hvlp gun

                                Now that we are back on topic

                                I was sloppy and careless and let my gun and 3M PPS system get covered with slopped shellac and waterborne. I tried a little scrapping to try to pop it off but no luck.

                                I had some household ammonia and heard that it destroyed shellac. I took my lid from the PPS system which was covered with finish and dropped in a container with some ammonia. I figured it would at least remove the shellac. After about 15 minutes I pulled it out. The finish quite soft and starting to decompose. I took an old toothbrush (and my fingernails and cleaned it up like new. Dropped the rest of PPS system into ammonia and with a little elbow grease they came out looking like new.

                                Next, the gun. It is a Fuji T-series made from chromed steel? Tested the ammonia on the metal and the plastic of the handle, and it didn't seem to cause any problems like etching or discoloring. I wet a couple of blue shop towels and wrapped my gun in them. A few minutes later and some more elbow grease, my gun now looks like new.

                                If you are a "finishing pig" like I was, you may be able to redeem yourself using this technique. I don't know if ammonia will work as well with oil or lacquer finishes. Also test it first in case the ammonia will affect you guns parts....I'm not sure what it would do to aluminum....

                                P.S. I am now cleaning my gun religiously.
                                Last edited by the_other_ken; 11-14-2018, 04:55 PM. Reason: speeling and grammer
                                the other Ken
                                ------
                                "Each flitch, each board, each plant can have only one ideal use. The woodworker, applying a thousand skills, must find that ideal use and then shape the wood to realize its true potential" - George Nakashima

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