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  • Rusty
    replied
    Thanks for that too Ryan. I will look forward to your future comments when Becca responds. I have no clue who they are but that doesn't mean much LOL! It's a bit and I do mean a bit, confusing the way they word their info and refer to the fluid passageways and then talk sbout the surface of the spray gun. How do you other guys read that. Surely they can't mean the outside surface of the gun as opposed to the inside can they? That wouldn't make much sense would it?

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  • callee
    replied
    Originally posted by Rusty View Post

    Well stated John. Thanks for that endorsement of reading the product info as Paul suggested. It's one of those times when it's best to read the instructions isn't it?
    I agree. Paul's post was surprising to me - that's the first I've heard that hot water could be a problem. I'm happy to be wrong, but since my experience is to the contrary, I've decided to look into it a bit first. I've read all the data sheets for the ml Campbell agualente that I usually spray, and can't find any mention of hot water good or bad. So I've written to the company directly. I'll post when I get a response.

    Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, I did find another finish company. Becca, that does advocate using hot water:

    .Water is the best base fluid for cleaning waterborne paint spray guns. Water is able to properly rinse the remaining paint from the fluid passageways without changing the chemical makeup of the remaining paint that dries on the surface of the spray gun. This results in less mess to clean up later. There are two additions to water that aid in speeding up the gun cleaning process and result in a cleaner and longer lasting finish on the spray gun.
    • Heat
    • Cleaning Solutions

    In the same way hot water is more effective in cleaning dishes or washing clothes, or a latex paint brush it also helps provide a faster and cleaner finish when cleaning waterborne spray guns. Heated water has better results due to the sped up process of chemical reactions and molecular movement that takes place in hot water. The process of energizing molecules will speed up molecular movement and chemical reactions occur at an accelerated pace. Heat is an effective form of energy that can be used to speed up the molecular movement in water. As the molecules in water are heated they begin to move faster and bump into surrounding molecules at a quicker pace resulting in chemical reactions occurring at a quicker rate. In cleaning spray guns the faster movement in heated water causes remaining paint existing on the spray gun to be removed by the water faster and more effectively. The result is a cleaner spray gun with less scrubbing time involved.
    http://www.beccainc.com/cleaning-wat...int-spray-gun/

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  • Rusty
    replied
    Originally posted by John JMK View Post
    "Butyl Cellusolve may be hard to get but Acetone is available at some hardware stores and can certainly be found at at the automotive stores that sell paints."

    Paul I was surprised to find the Butyl Cellusolve on the shelf at one the SW stores I use, the store in Milton stock the Kem Aqua line and are great for when I need a single gallon quick. Not all stores do this but might be worth a call to a local store. It can also be used as a reducer in small quantities, found out this by reading the Product PDF.
    Well stated John. Thanks for that endorsement of reading the product info as Paul suggested. It's one of those times when it's best to read the instructions isn't it?

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  • John JMK
    replied
    "Butyl Cellusolve may be hard to get but Acetone is available at some hardware stores and can certainly be found at at the automotive stores that sell paints."

    Paul I was surprised to find the Butyl Cellusolve on the shelf at one the SW stores I use, the store in Milton stock the Kem Aqua line and are great for when I need a single gallon quick. Not all stores do this but might be worth a call to a local store. It can also be used as a reducer in small quantities, found out this by reading the Product PDF.

    Leave a comment:


  • MartyFromKingston
    replied
    Paul,

    Yours is the best explanation I've yet to hear for the argument to stay away from using hot water to clean waterborne finish from spraying equipment. Like you, one of my guns is fed fluid through a line, but instead of it being a pump, mine has a pressure pot.

    Click image for larger version

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    And, Rusty, that Youtube video you shared with us was certainly one of the best videos I've yet seen on cleaning guns.


    Thanks for sharing this invaluable info with us, gents!

    Marty

    Originally posted by Paul O in Paris View Post

    Ryan, waterbased finishes have made a quantum leap since I started spraying them, but I still don't use hot water for cleaning.
    Waterbased starts to cure when the carrier loses full contact with the resin particles. This will happen to some extent if you leave a can for a long time and all the solids settle to the bottom thus isolating themselves from the carrier. There is a witches brew of chemicals in that liquid designed to delay curing until a specific set of conditions are met, so you can warm up a can of well stirred finish and it won't start to cure because the resins are surrounded by all these goodies in the carrier. Spray the finish on a surface and the thin layer doesn't have the same properties as a can full and the resins become separated from the carrier (as it evaporates) and start the amalgamation process. Heat will speed up this process, so the way it was explained to me was that flushing hot water will remove most of the carrier and will accelerate the curing of any resin that's left. It's probably not a big deal in a cup gun and regularly taking it apart and brushing it out will ensure there are no such problems. However, I have a 25ft line from my pressure pot to the gun and a 15ft line form my Kremlin pump to the gun and as I haven't come across any brushes that would work for those lengths I don't take any chances.
    But I digress and am getting too far away from the OP's questions
    Paul

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  • Paul O in Paris
    replied
    Originally posted by rfielder View Post
    I was thinking about getting into spray finishes, but it sounds like a LOT of work to clean up and maintain your equipment.
    Any equipment needs regular cleaning but if you are getting put off by the details I posted remember that because I am a one man finishing and refinishing business, I place totally different demands on my equipment and use very different finishes than someone getting into spray finishing on a casual basis.
    The simple cleaning method John quoted above will work well and it's hardly a lot of work to fill the gun cup and pull the trigger is it?
    If you want to minimize the amount of cleaning then check out the 3M PPS system.
    And as Brian said, don't get put off by what you read on an internet forum unless you know and/or trust the source.
    Hope that clarifies some issues for you.
    Paul
    Last edited by Paul O in Paris; 11-10-2018, 07:32 AM.

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  • Paul O in Paris
    replied
    Originally posted by John JMK View Post
    l I was just going through some PDF's for SW Kem Aqua products.

    John brings up a very important point, namely that the finish manufacturers provide detailed spec sheets on their products and how to use them. Some give more detail than others but there is a ton of information out there to help folks get the best out of their products.
    IMO anyone who uses any kind of finish owes it to themselves to check these data sheets, which are usually readily available on the manufacturers' web site in the product description area.
    The cleaning method John quoted is a simple yet effective way to keep a spray gun working. Butyl Cellusolve may be hard to get but Acetone is available at some hardware stores and can certainly be found at at the automotive stores that sell paints.

    Paul


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  • Brian @ Muir
    replied
    Originally posted by rfielder View Post
    On a semi-related note - WOW! I was thinking about getting into spray finishes, but it sounds like a LOT of work to clean up and maintain your equipment.
    Not really , never make a judgement on what you read on a forum. I am not that much of an enviromentalist and still spray solvent based products. You do need good ventilation and really not suitable to spray in your basement. Cleans up very easily with thinners. I use a Kremlin system but started with a siphon feed gun and a 3 hp compressor. You can buy a Hvlp gun for under $100. I used a 20 gallon compressor for years and it works fine if you are not doing large jobs.

    Brian

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  • Rusty
    replied
    Did you check out my link?

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  • rfielder
    replied
    On a semi-related note - WOW! I was thinking about getting into spray finishes, but it sounds like a LOT of work to clean up and maintain your equipment.

    Leave a comment:


  • John JMK
    replied
    Paul I was just going through some PDF's for SW Kem Aqua products. To add/reenforce what is being discussed, this was their recommendation WB for cleanup.

    "Clean tools/equipment immediately after use with water. Flush equipment with water followed by flushing with 2 parts water and 1 part Butyl Cellosolve R6K25 or Acetone R6K9."

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  • Paul O in Paris
    replied
    Originally posted by callee View Post

    Perhaps, as you said, the WB products have simply changed in the last 20 years.
    Ryan, waterbased finishes have made a quantum leap since I started spraying them, but I still don't use hot water for cleaning.
    Waterbased starts to cure when the carrier loses full contact with the resin particles. This will happen to some extent if you leave a can for a long time and all the solids settle to the bottom thus isolating themselves from the carrier. There is a witches brew of chemicals in that liquid designed to delay curing until a specific set of conditions are met, so you can warm up a can of well stirred finish and it won't start to cure because the resins are surrounded by all these goodies in the carrier. Spray the finish on a surface and the thin layer doesn't have the same properties as a can full and the resins become separated from the carrier (as it evaporates) and start the amalgamation process. Heat will speed up this process, so the way it was explained to me was that flushing hot water will remove most of the carrier and will accelerate the curing of any resin that's left. It's probably not a big deal in a cup gun and regularly taking it apart and brushing it out will ensure there are no such problems. However, I have a 25ft line from my pressure pot to the gun and a 15ft line form my Kremlin pump to the gun and as I haven't come across any brushes that would work for those lengths I don't take any chances.
    But I digress and am getting too far away from the OP's questions
    Paul

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  • Paul O in Paris
    replied
    I agree with Ken. If you are cleaning your gun with the same products as always and you have never had problems before, then I seriously doubt it's the gun. You could run a little acetone through it, but that could dislodge some crud and you would have an extra set of problems. Maybe do that after you have finished this current project.
    Fisheye is most often caused by contamination of the surface being sprayed usually by coming into contact with an unclean surface or from microdroplets of something dropping out of the air. There are even reported incidences of a person's deodorant causing them. So has whatever you are spraying got dirty, have you used any aerosols in your shop area recently (WD 40 is a common cause)? Those are areas I would look to first.
    It could also be a contaminated batch of finish. What are you spraying and was it newly opened or a previously opened can? Was it stirred real well so there was almost nothing left on the bottom? Was anything added to the can?
    A long shot could be that your turbine is putting something into the air stream. One way to check is to disconnect the hose from the gun, wrap some white cloth or paper towel around the hose end, turn on the motor. let it warm up then turn off and inspect cloth/paper towel for any oily residue.
    There are other features that can look like fisheye, craters or solvent pop spring to mind and are caused either by the product one is using or the spray technique or both. If you have a pic that could help.
    It's frustrating and we've all been there, but it's solvable although it can be a lengthy process of elimination.
    Hang in there
    Paul

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  • the_other_ken
    replied
    Originally posted by rickyw View Post
    why I posted because all off a sudden , I got fish eye and nothing changed ? using dish soap and hot water ? used some accetone to clean gun out ? that ok
    The fish eye may not be from your gun. The problem could be caused by something on the surface you are spraying.

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  • rickyw
    replied
    why I posted because all off a sudden , I got fish eye and nothing changed ? using dish soap and hot water ? used some accetone to clean gun out ? that ok

    Leave a comment:

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