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  • Turning ash

    I glued up some ash blanks and I am finding it very hard to turn. The 1.5" thick boards were kiln dried and I stored them for close to 10 years (left over board and a half). When I used the forstner bits to hollow out, I still noticed moisture so it is not bone dry (haven't tested the moisture content as of yet).

    Even with freshly sharpened tools or my carbide tools, this is hard to hollow out! Any techniques out there that would help?
    Attached Files
    Egon likes this.
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  • #2

    Re: Turning ash

    I also tried to concentrate cuts across the grain at the exposed end. Obviously, end grain is harder to cut.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Turning ash

      Rolf you are not turning endgrain, and you are not the firstone to get confused about grain orientation, we will get this out of the way first, see the picture of the vase (Not Mine) it is turned endgrain, the grain direction in a tree is from the bottom to the top.

      So this vase has the grain running from end to end, and drilling and turning in from the end is what's called endgrain drilling or turning, as in this vase, the pith of the wood is in it (splitting as well) and you can see the year rings.

      On your piece you do have several (7) pieces laying on top of each other, they are all in a cross grain direction to the lathe and drilling, turning direction

      Now you have hard dry Ash planks stacked and I would get the largest forstner bit to drill as much wood out as possible, then use your sharp cutters that you bought, and just keep scraping/cutting the wood away.

      Not going to be easy, that is the reason hollowing is done as much as possible in wet/green wood, Termite or hook tools are used, but there is a learning curve to that and still not a quick/fast wood removal with them.

      Just take your time and make sure the tools are as sharp as you can get them
      Last edited by Leo Van Der Loo; 04-05-2021, 07:33 PM.

      Have fun and take care
      Leo Van Der Loo

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Turning ash

        Originally posted by Leo Van Der Loo View Post
        Rolf you are not turning endgrain, and you are not the firstone to get confused about grain orientation, we will get this out of the way first, see the picture of the vase (Not Mine) it is turned endgrain, the grain direction in a tree is from the bottom to the top.

        So this vase has the grain running from end to end, and drilling and turning in from the end is what's called endgrain drilling or turning, as in this vase, the pith of the wood is in it (splitting as well) and you can see the year rings.

        On your piece you do have several (7) pieces laying on top of each other, they are all in a cross grain direction to the lathe and drilling, turning direction

        Now you have hard dry Ash planks stacked and I would get the largest forstner bit to drill as much wood out as possible, then use your sharp cutters that you bought, and just keep scraping/cutting the wood away.

        Not going to be easy, that is the reason hollowing is done as much as possible in wet/green wood, Termite or hook tools are used, but there is a learning curve to that and still not a quick/fast wood removal with them.

        Just take your time and make sure the tools are as sharp as you can get them
        Yes, I hollowed it like I said with my 2-1/8" forstner bit. When you make cuts going in and out you are cutting end grain. When you cut the remaining rim width at the open end, you are still cutting cross grain, as I stated. Still I find removing material very difficult. I have a termite and it has a hard time too. I just thought someone figured out a good method to improve rate of removal. Right now I am getting fine dust mostly off.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Rolf In Burlington; 04-06-2021, 08:38 AM.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Turning ash

          I guess we disagree, that's OK, but the way you are cutting is considered cutting side grain, just the same as if you are hollowing a Bowl, and that is not considered cutting endgrain. still like I said hollowing dry hard wood is slow going and only the sharpest tool will help.

          The carbide disks will cut slightly better if it sits angled slightly up, but not too much as it would like to self-feed, the bid will sheer cut and a pull cut works best with the cutter in that orientation, just give it a try,

          Oh and here are a couple pieces I turned that are considered endgrain turnings .


          Have fun and take care
          Leo Van Der Loo

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Turning ash

            I’d suggest that every lamination will go from end grain to side grain for each 90 degree segment of a 360 degree circle with each grain type being at an 180 degree angle. ( opposite of each other )

            For old, dry and hard wood the angle of the tool rest may need changing as well as having a significant flat depth for better/proper support. The chisel should also be sharpened to an angle that is compatible to the tool rest. Along with this the tool rest height has to be adjusted so there is a cutting action rather than a scraping action.
            Egon
            from
            The South Shore, Nova Scotia

            Comment

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            • #7

              Re: Turning ash

              Cutter position makes a big difference in how well they cut, I got a couple pictures here that show different manners of holding and positioning.

              There is no cutter in this one that shows the disk that can swivel, easy to remove and the cutter would be CA'd in, that way it's easy to sharpen

              Click image for larger version  Name:	Hollowing tools.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	87.9 KB ID:	1325489

              These are similar and can rotate on 2 axes as well, cutting bids used are mostly HSS, but the Aluminium cutting carbide bits are also used, small, so as to be able to control them.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	swivel head with HSS bit.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	9.9 KB ID:	1325490

              rotated and slightly leaning back for the cutting disk works best.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	carbide cutter in swivel holder.jpg Views:	0 Size:	25.3 KB ID:	1325491
              Last edited by Leo Van Der Loo; 04-07-2021, 01:35 PM.

              Have fun and take care
              Leo Van Der Loo

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Turning ash

                on a metal lathe the triangular shaped tools that can be turned 6 times are common and they have in many cases replaced the old school grinding of HSS, except when you need a certain shape. what would happen if you made up a holder for those or are they used on a wood lathe? they have a little lip near the cutting edge. I've never put one to a piece of wood, plastic yes. they work fine on that.

                I made up a tool ( a handle) to hold spent carbide cutters from planers and jointers. If they have a tiny nick I replace them and sometimes use them the rest of the way up as a pull scraper to remove old paint, dried glue, etc. they work quite well for that. then I can follow up with a card scraper once I get down into the "meat" of the wood.

                you can buy new scrapers and handles and some are nice, but for things like paint removal they get used up and then you have to keep buying them.

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Turning ash

                  Leo has the right meaning of end grain in his posts; the OP has nothing different than cross-grain, rip and combination angles just like turning a bowl or platter or what ever out of a slab of wood. Drilling into the the end of a spindle, for example, is end-grain; the end of a log, the top of a stump, and so on are end-grain. Re-definitions of age-old terms is never helpful, can be confusing and even lead to catastrophic results at times. For references on grain orientation definitions see Hayward's various titles on the art and craft of wood (there are many, many others too, I happened to be looking at one of his last evening). Leo has turned more wooden articles in any given year than I have ever turned; it would be a rare thing if he got it wrong so far as I can tell after many years of enjoying his turning wisdom on this Forum.

                  On another topic alluded to in the discussion so far, I don't see why folks are not sharpening their carbide cutters when they dull; a bit of diamond paper, diamond hones, diamond stones, diamond paste on MDF, diamond files, diamond wheels, diamond belts, etc. can all be used to re-hone and even reshape carbide cutters to give them many, many hours of operation. With a multitude of sharpening options available, why chuck them? I resharpen my Bahco carbide scraper cutters and carbide metal lathe tools when they get dull; I haven't worn one out yet. I salvaged a lathe tool that I damaged cutting stainless steel, reground it similar to my HSS cutters and turned it into a bit for aluminium and plastics; it works a treat. The Bahco blades make nice marking knife blades when reground BTW!

                  Ken

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Turning ash

                    Originally posted by KenL View Post
                    Leo has the right meaning of end grain in his posts; the OP has nothing different than cross-grain, rip and combination angles just like turning a bowl or platter or what ever out of a slab of wood. Drilling into the the end of a spindle, for example, is end-grain; the end of a log, the top of a stump, and so on are end-grain. Re-definitions of age-old terms is never helpful, can be confusing and even lead to catastrophic results at times. For references on grain orientation definitions see Hayward's various titles on the art and craft of wood (there are many, many others too, I happened to be looking at one of his last evening). Leo has turned more wooden articles in any given year than I have ever turned; it would be a rare thing if he got it wrong so far as I can tell after many years of enjoying his turning wisdom on this Forum.

                    On another topic alluded to in the discussion so far, I don't see why folks are not sharpening their carbide cutters when they dull; a bit of diamond paper, diamond hones, diamond stones, diamond paste on MDF, diamond files, diamond wheels, diamond belts, etc. can all be used to re-hone and even reshape carbide cutters to give them many, many hours of operation. With a multitude of sharpening options available, why chuck them? I resharpen my Bahco carbide scraper cutters and carbide metal lathe tools when they get dull; I haven't worn one out yet. I salvaged a lathe tool that I damaged cutting stainless steel, reground it similar to my HSS cutters and turned it into a bit for aluminium and plastics; it works a treat. The Bahco blades make nice marking knife blades when reground BTW!

                    Ken
                    When i put a tool into the hollowed out vessel and bring the tool against the wood surface (perpendicular to the axis of rotation) i am cutting end grain. If i put a tool parrallel to the axis of rotation, ie pushing on to the wood going into the vessel, i am cutting across the grain like a bowl. That is what i stated. Is that incorrect?


                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Turning ash

                      It is the wood that defines if you are cutting engrain or sidegrain, not the way you hold or move the tool against the wood, you can do push cuts or pull cuts in either sidegrain wood or endgrain wood, that does not change the wood grain direction.

                      And this is the last I am going to discuss about turning your stacked stack of sidegrain disk, good luck with your project .
                      Last edited by Leo Van Der Loo; 04-07-2021, 08:41 PM.

                      Have fun and take care
                      Leo Van Der Loo

                      Comment

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                      • #12

                        Re: Turning ash

                        And this is the last I am going to discuss about turning your stacked stack of sidegrain disk, good luck with your project .
                        [/QUOTE]

                        If one looks at the end of a flat board you will see end grain. Look at it from the side and you see side grain. Not very hard to comprehend.
                        Egon
                        from
                        The South Shore, Nova Scotia

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Turning ash

                          I would strongly suggest you join a club or get lessons. This is some basic turning skill that you are lacking. Leo quite rightly identified your glue up as being in bowl orientation, so on the outside you are cutting from side grain into end grain twice with every rotation. When you are hollowing it is essential to start the cut out near the rim and move the tool in towards the centre. Then you are cutting down hill or with the grain. If you try to cut from the centre out by sticking your tool into the hole and moving it towards you you are cutting against the grain and asking for problems. Like I said get some hands on as this is an essential basic understanding of how grain affects cutting directions. I think Leo has a picture somewhere showing the change of direction as a tool goes around the inside of a vessel.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Turning ash

                            Yes I still have that picture Pete, it could help if it is understood, and with more practice it will become apparent.

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Best turning direction.jpeg
Views:	80
Size:	150.9 KB
ID:	1325961

                            Have fun and take care
                            Leo Van Der Loo

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Turning ash

                              Originally posted by Roundhead View Post
                              I would strongly suggest you join a club or get lessons. This is some basic turning skill that you are lacking. Leo quite rightly identified your glue up as being in bowl orientation, so on the outside you are cutting from side grain into end grain twice with every rotation. When you are hollowing it is essential to start the cut out near the rim and move the tool in towards the centre. Then you are cutting down hill or with the grain. If you try to cut from the centre out by sticking your tool into the hole and moving it towards you you are cutting against the grain and asking for problems. Like I said get some hands on as this is an essential basic understanding of how grain affects cutting directions. I think Leo has a picture somewhere showing the change of direction as a tool goes around the inside of a vessel.
                              wow, now I know why so many people have left this forum. You are stuck on convention and vernacular. I never stated I was turning an end grain vessel, I stated I was cutting a lot of end grain with my tools because the aspect ratio of my vessel is so large. When you remove material on a bowel you are pretty much only cutting across the grain. My tools are round and cut normal to the bored out surface of the wood. You and Egon can worry about convention and catastrophic accidents caused by not speaking in the vernacular.

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