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Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

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  • Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

    For those interested in Pattern vices the Oliver Vice is a licensed Knock of a Wadkin. Wadkin supplied some of the machines to fill out there pattern makers line for the 1920 to about the 50s

    cuts from a 1936 Wadkin catolog. Note the price of the vices.



    you can see where Record got there's too.



    So if you don't want a "KNOCK OFF" get a Wadkin

    jack
    English machines
    everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

    jack
    English machines

    http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613
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  • #2

    Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

    Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

    Thanks for posting that information, those scans are very interesting. I'm looking forward to a good discussion about these vices.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

      Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

      Originally posted by callee View Post
      Thanks for posting that information, those scans are very interesting. I'm looking forward to a good discussion about these vices.
      Yes let don't lock this one down


      The pages in this old Wadkin & Co catalogue which shows what appears to be an Emmert-pattern vice sold by the company. The fact that no less than two pages are devoted to it as opposed to the 1/3 page given over to conventional vices may indicate it's importance as a product. As to dating these pages were published sometime between 1927 and 1935 (Wadkin incorporated as a Ltd company in 1935).

      What Is the oldest publication of the Oliver?

      jack
      English machines
      everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

      jack
      English machines

      http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

        Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

        Originally posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
        Yes let don't lock this one down


        The pages in this old Wadkin & Co catalogue which shows what appears to be an Emmert-pattern vice sold by the company. The fact that no less than two pages are devoted to it as opposed to the 1/3 page given over to conventional vices may indicate it's importance as a product. As to dating these pages were published sometime between 1927 and 1935 (Wadkin incorporated as a Ltd company in 1935).

        What Is the oldest publication of the Oliver?

        jack
        English machines
        The 1904 Oliver catalog (first with the new Oliver name after a re-naming) has Emmert-type vises.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

          Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

          Interesting as it was my understanding that Oliver made these since the early 1900's and I've never heard a link with Wadkin mentioned before, could you link your source please, I'd be interested to read it.

          Either way these are quite useful tools and rare these days. One thing that picture with the guy working at the vise really demonstrates is the relative size of the vise.

          On the topic of "knock-offs", you can call a licensed product a knock-off if you wish, but generally I think the term is reserved for unlicensed products, wouldn't you agree?

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

            Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

            these 1904 ones are vices with Oliver cast in the vice?

            jack
            English machines
            everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

            jack
            English machines

            http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

            Comment

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            • #7

              Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

              Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

              Originally posted by J.E.M. View Post
              could you link your source please, I'd be interested to read it.
              I am the historian for English machines as is Matty over at http://vintagemachinery.org/home.aspx

              AKA tool613

              jack
              English machines
              everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

              jack
              English machines

              http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                Originally posted by J.E.M. View Post
                Interesting as it was my understanding that Oliver made these since the early 1900's and I've never heard a link with Wadkin mentioned before,
                catalogue illustrations were frequently of prototype machines or tools which were modified during production (sometimes radically - the Wadkin PK saw was changed quite a bit over it's lifespan with the electrical box at the front of the casting migrating around several times). J H Goddard, the chairman of Wadkin travelled extensively in North America during the 1920s both selling the Wadkin pattern miller to foundries and picking-up ideas to make or sell in the UK. He concluded quite a few reciprocal manufacturing agreements which is why I had wondered whether or not he had obtained a licence or agreement of some kind for the Emmert vice or possibly arranged for the factory in Leicester to manufacture their own copy out of licence. All I know about their stuff in terms of colour is that they generally painted everything with a dark grey lead-based paint to give a smooth surface to the sand castings and that the paint can weather to anything from almost black to pale blue over time! If it's Prussian Blue it might even be a Woden or Record item. Perhaps if we have an Emmert vice afficianado or expert on patternmaker's suppliers here he/she might be able to answer the question. Or is there someone with a pre-WWII Buck & Hickmann catalogue who'd care to take a look see at what they offerred?

                Incidentally, Wadkin quote an 18 x 7in plate with 16in opening. How does yours compare?

                jack
                English machines
                everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                jack
                English machines

                http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                  Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                  Originally posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
                  catalogue illustrations were frequently of prototype machines or tools which were modified during production (sometimes radically - the Wadkin PK saw was changed quite a bit over it's lifespan with the electrical box at the front of the casting migrating around several times). J H Goddard, the chairman of Wadkin travelled extensively in North America during the 1920s both selling the Wadkin pattern miller to foundries and picking-up ideas to make or sell in the UK. He concluded quite a few reciprocal manufacturing agreements which is why I had wondered whether or not he had obtained a licence or agreement of some kind for the Emmert vice or possibly arranged for the factory in Leicester to manufacture their own copy out of licence. All I know about their stuff in terms of colour is that they generally painted everything with a dark grey lead-based paint to give a smooth surface to the sand castings and that the paint can weather to anything from almost black to pale blue over time! If it's Prussian Blue it might even be a Woden or Record item. Perhaps if we have an Emmert vice afficianado or expert on patternmaker's suppliers here he/she might be able to answer the question. Or is there someone with a pre-WWII Buck & Hickmann catalogue who'd care to take a look see at what they offerred?

                  Incidentally, Wadkin quote an 18 x 7in plate with 16in opening. How does yours compare?

                  jack
                  English machines
                  That is the exact size my Oliver measures and also the size listed in Oliver's literature, mine was light grey when I got it and that does seem to be the only layer of paint on it.

                  I didn't have a chance to pursue the vintage site and find the info on Wadkin/Oliver, but I'll have a go, thanks for the link, Jim.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                    Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                    Originally posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
                    these 1904 ones are vices with Oliver cast in the vice?

                    jack
                    English machines
                    It is not clear - they might even be Emmert vises, sold from the Oliver catalogue.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                      Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                      Thanks Jack. That's the education that's needed for those who don't know or understand the differences between vices and why the good ones are expensive.
                      "Do it Right!"

                      Comment

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                      • #12

                        Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                        Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                        Originally posted by Arminius View Post
                        It is not clear - they might even be Emmert vises, sold from the Oliver catalogue.
                        Do you have a picture of the early Oliver vise you speak of.

                        An Emmert is easily distinguishable from an Oliver and I've never seen an Emmert style vise with the Oliver logo.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                          Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                          Originally posted by J.E.M. View Post
                          Do you have a picture of the early Oliver vise you speak of.

                          An Emmert is easily distinguishable from an Oliver and I've never seen an Emmert style vise with the Oliver logo.
                          No, it is a catalogue listing, not even an illustration - so it could be they were referred to as 'Emmert' style for some reason, or that American/Oliver was a distributor.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                            Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                            Here’s what I know about my soon to be gone Oliver No.1;

                            In late 1988 I spent 2 days in the company of several gentlemen who were at the end of their careers at Canadian Vickers (Montreal), the shipyard this vise came from. They were present during the time the machinery was being removed from the plant after the auction, facilitating that process, and one supervisor in particular was quite helpful with information in English.

                            My understanding is that the Jointers shop had initially been outfitted in the late 1920’s with what had been the most modern equipment available at the time, and that the some of the Oliver equipment had been there since day one, including this vise.

                            I later learned that as this vise has the Acme thread (which was produced starting in 1926), that this information was possibly correct. I know this vise was originally on another bench but didn’t find out how long it’s been on this bench.

                            I was told that in 1930 there were considerably more wooden components and castings in a ship than there were by the 1960’s, the shop initially made all those wood components and also all the patterns for the castings.

                            By the 1980’s, with most of the castings either eliminated or farmed out, and wood components replaced by plastic/aluminum, the jointers/pattern makers shop was reduced to a trim shop and the machinery had not been updated/augmented since the late 1950’s.

                            Now that you mention Wadkin, it’s interesting to note that the jointers shop was also filled with Wadkin equipment, I know we also came home with a great Wadkin chain mortise, but there were more.

                            Quite a few machines also had tags from the same Montreal machinery supply company, so I think it’s safe to say that at the time, Oliver and Wadkin were distributed in Quebec by the same company. I can tell you for sure that all machines were clearly marked with logos, either Wadkin (green paint) or Oliver (grey paint). I’ve never read or heard talk of any collaboration between the two firms, but clearly from that Wadkin cut sheet something was going on.

                            Also, it’s interesting that the Wadkin vise pictured above has no logo on it while the Oliver does, I think that raises the point that it’s possible the Wadkin is actually a knock-off version of the Oliver.

                            Look forward to hearing more from you historians, thanks, Jim.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                              Re: Facts about Oliver's knock off of a Wadkin pattern makers vice

                              The firm Wadkin & Co. of Leicester gave the American franchise for their pattern milling (and other pattern-shop) machines to the Oliver Machinery Company of Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1908 (Oliver continued to distribute for Wadkin until the 1930s).

                              Wadkin were actually the inventors of a series of patented pattern millers and the like which from 1908 onwards were imported into the USA by Oliver so they have had a very long presence in the American market. Following Wadkin chairman J.H.Goddard's extended worldwide sales trip in the mid 1920s Wadkin redesigned their entire range of line-shaft driven machinery to have integrated direct-drive electric motors based on the American model (probably the first woodworking machinery in Europe to so do), emerging in the 1930s as a very progressive machinery company. In fact between 1928 and 1935 brand new machine designs were produced by the draughtsmen at Wadkin at the rate 7 per year and belt machines were dropped from the main catalogue for the first time in 1936, although available to order well into the 1950s. Wadkin continued to have relationships with American manufacturers throughout the 1930s and later, importing the Vonnegut through-feed moulders into the UK before WWII and manufacturing the American Sherrill drum sanders under licence in the 1950s and 1960s whilst simultaneously exporting to the USA. It is therefore hardly surprising that Wadkins come up for sale regularly in this country, at least in industrial site auctions.

                              So if you can find a catalog cut of the Oliver vice(with oliver cast in) before 1908 your statement would be less funny. I would be suprised if anything shows show up before 1936. So the ball is in your court to find a cut older than the one i posted

                              As to your dates on the wadkin machines that were Green you are simply wrong , although to be frank there is almost nobody left at the company who can remember the pre duo-tone green days of the 1970s let alone the change from grey to metallic green in the 1960s. At least until about 1958 all Wadkins were delivered as standard in grey paint with names picked-out in white (or sometimes in machines like the PK, red) unless the customer specified otherwise. This grey paint was lead based, and like all lead-based paints it weathers out to anything from white to pale blue to shades of grey and just occassionally it goes black. But never green. Bursgreen machines continued to be painted grey for a number of years. The green colour came about as a result of either/both the retention and marketing of the "Bursgreen" name (post 1957) or (according to some) as a result of changes in the regulations governing machine colours at the Hannover Fair in the early to mid 1960s when all woodworking machines exhibited had to be green. How very German!. It became a popular "ruse" on the part of dealers to repaint older machines during the 1960s to make them look newer, and as the newer machines were green that was often the colour they chose. Either way by the 1960s Bursgreen machines were green, but that green was normally a metallic green as in the Wadkin BZB20 a mid to late 1960s machine

                              I could never understand why Oliver has had a reputation as the best the Americans offered. Its popularity it not base on it being the best in its class. They make a good lathe and band saw in fact in most cases it not the top in any group. I think that Oliver being the main suppler to the vocational school(by government contract) has given it its reputation .This is only because it it popular and not that it is best.

                              jack
                              English machines
                              Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 10-06-2011, 06:39 PM.
                              everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                              jack
                              English machines

                              http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                              Comment

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