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  • New shop - on the rocks...

    I'm a hobby woodturner. Have been woodworking most of my like and decided I would finally get serious.
    About 5 years ago I built myself a real shop. 25 x 20 feet that can be seen here: http://www.olafvogel.com/construction.html

    Similarly, my wife is a hobby painter. She's done quite a few shows now, sold lots of paintings and last year made decent money.
    So she would like to take it more seriously as well.

    Hence, I'd like to build her a studio. (for some strange reason she doesn't want to share mine. Something about noise and sawdust in the paint. I don't get it...)

    The property is on Georgian Bay, with a fair bit of frontage. Its a very rough lake in fall, so 30 years ago a lot of shoreline work was done to prevent erosion. Specifically, large granite rocks where trucked in and piled up as a protective barrier. By large, I mean up to 6 x 4 x 3 feet! With smaller ones to fill the gaps. Similar to the pic below

    Its the exact same solution used on the break walls of the Toronto shoreline, Scarborough Bluffs and likely many other places.

    Well... thats the spot for her new studio. About 10 feet from the shore, but 12 feet above the water.
    A 25 x 14 foot deck has been there for 30 years, but its rotting away and will be replaced in spring. It just sits on the rocks.

    The idea is to build a new deck there, with some footings onto the larger rocks, then build the studio on top of the deck.

    Over the last 30 years those rocks have settled, but might still move a bit with winter ice. So something adjustable would be good.
    Its 200m from the road, so dumping a lot of concrete is not feasible.
    I'm happy to drill into the rocks to create anchor footings.

    Q - What I would like some guidance on is how to create those footings.

    No one I have found around here has any experience.
    I've Googled around but don't even know what search terms to use.

    Thanks for the suggestions.
    Olaf
    Last edited by Shandit66; 01-12-2018, 03:13 PM.
  • Thread Continues Below...

  • #2

    Re: New shop - on the rocks...

    Sounds like a great location but make certain that you have enough barrier that should the ice break up and get a NW gale pushing it, it does not lift your shop off its foundation. This happens on the east coast regularly as people build cottages without considering the power of nature.
    Erik

    Canada's Island Paradise - Prince Edward Island

    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: New shop - on the rocks...

      If I were you I would examine the possibilities of building on a cantilevered system projected out and over the stone, perhaps even hinged to allow for movement. It's really not all that difficult on a small size.

      Although the deck you describe has been there for many years I assume you are aware of the possibilities of total destruction in any given season. Why risk it by fastening to the stone? The bottom line is you will spend an equal amount on the enclosed room/structure regardless. The difference, if there is a difference, could be the cost of the foundation the room sits on. Do that part right in terms of your location and sit back and enjoy.
      "Do it Right!"

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: New shop - on the rocks...

        Well, I do plan on adding a small deck and that will cantilever over the edge, but only about 5 feet max.
        But the structure does need to sit on the rocks, because there's nothing else solid there.

        Sure it could be destroyed, its a gamble. But a similar one, 300m away is 60 years old.
        By then I'll be 110 years old. I'll just sit on the deck and drink my rum as it crumbles into the sea.

        If there's a solution to not anchor into the rocks, thats fine too. Then what should sit on???
        If anyone has pics etc of how to support it, that would be great.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: New shop - on the rocks...

          For the sake of simplicity because I have no clue what your situation looks like from a single pic, let me suggest a simple teeter-totter with the inboard end nailed to the ground and the other end extending over the stone. Build your studio on the extended end. Thats a cantilever that could work. All you need is the strength of the beams to achieve the result. I might even suggest a properly designed roof truss positioned upside down could work.

          Our family had a cottage on the water. A neighbour owned a large steel company. He positioned 3 - 1 inch thick 20 foot diameter plate steel cylinders in the water and used prestressed concrete bridge slabs as a deck sitting on top of said cylinders to moor his large sail boat and various other power water vehicles. The deep end was probably 10 feet out of the water with 15 feet under the water. It was perfect for 10 years minimum. the spring of year 11 saw total and complete destruction from inordinately thick ice and a wind that never BLEW in that direction!!
          "Do it Right!"

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: New shop - on the rocks...

            Originally posted by Shandit66 View Post
            I'm a hobby woodturner. Have been woodworking most of my like and decided I would finally get serious.
            About 5 years ago I built myself a real shop. 25 x 20 feet that can be seen here: http://www.olafvogel.com/construction.html

            Similarly, my wife is a hobby painter. She's done quite a few shows now, sold lots of paintings and last year made decent money.
            So she would like to take it more seriously as well.

            Hence, I'd like to build her a studio. (for some strange reason she doesn't want to share mine. Something about noise and sawdust in the paint. I don't get it...)

            The property is on Georgian Bay, with a fair bit of frontage. Its a very rough lake in fall, so 30 years ago a lot of shoreline work was done to prevent erosion. Specifically, large granite rocks where trucked in and piled up as a protective barrier. By large, I mean up to 6 x 4 x 3 feet! With smaller ones to fill the gaps. Similar to the pic below

            Its the exact same solution used on the break walls of the Toronto shoreline, Scarborough Bluffs and likely many other places.

            Well... thats the spot for her new studio. About 10 feet from the shore, but 12 feet above the water.
            A 25 x 14 foot deck has been there for 30 years, but its rotting away and will be replaced in spring. It just sits on the rocks.

            The idea is to build a new deck there, with some footings onto the larger rocks, then build the studio on top of the deck.

            Over the last 30 years those rocks have settled, but might still move a bit with winter ice. So something adjustable would be good.
            Its 200m from the road, so dumping a lot of concrete is not feasible.
            I'm happy to drill into the rocks to create anchor footings.

            Q - What I would like some guidance on is how to create those footings.

            No one I have found around here has any experience.
            I've Googled around but don't even know what search terms to use.

            Thanks for the suggestions.
            Olaf
            Look up our Mod -- Callee and ask him . IIRC -he has experience in this type of building. Ask and listen to people from the area that have done it already.

            Comment

            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: New shop - on the rocks...

              http://alltask.ca/helical-piles/
              your pic does not show much of the shoreline. There has got to be someone in your area that could install screw piles. One big advantage is the minimal disturbance to the surrounding area and they can be easily removed should the need arise. Was at the Ontario Landscaping show yesterday and was talking to one of the show exhibitors. He quoted a ball pArk price of $600 per pile installed. This was dependant on how deep they would have to sink the drill. The price did not include extensions. A screw pile replaces a typical sono tube for a footing.

              I really like the design of your workshop. If you built that I rather doubt you need much help with you wife's project. Good luck with your venture.

              Ps Bob from Ayr has used screw piles and is on this forum and if he reads this he may be able to answer some of your questions.

              Brian

              schor likes this.
              If your dreams don't scare you, you are not dreaming big enough

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                Can you restate your objective. I'm of the belief that you want to build over the rock at the shoreline and over the years the rock has moved and you want to avoid that possibility.

                If you want to be on the land Brian's suggestion of screw piles works fine.
                "Do it Right!"

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                  Very nice workshop and equipment to go with it.

                  I would be intrestead in seeing more pictures of where you want to setup the studio.
                  I’ve had many screw piles installed on jobs I’ve looked after and they can be an excellent option. At work we ussally install 6” or larger screw piles. I don’t think you would need ones that big, probably 3 or 4”. As Brain pointed out screw piles can be easily removed, the same can’t be said for pounded piles or sono tube.

                  Is your shop a floating slab or did you install piles for it?

                  Mike @ Buck Lake

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                    Ice comes ashore? With the right conditions ice can pile up quite high and move stuff around.

                    If if that is the only location it's best to get some professional advice. Chances are it would require something like a bridge abutment to stand up to the ice. It would be expensive.
                    Egon
                    from
                    The South Shore, Nova Scotia

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                      We used ground screws on my sisters 14' x 76' park model mobile home. The installation was quick and simple. The installers said they could go into almost any ground conditions including bedrock. They supplied an engines paper that satisfied the municipal authorities. The cost was much less than a floating slab concrete pears or pored foundation. Here is a link to the distributor http://bayo-s.ca/ I have no affiliation with the company just a satisfied customer
                      Bob just past Ayr

                      Comment

                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                        Thank you everyone for your feedback and ideas.
                        And my apologies for not providing more detail on the site and intentions. Its currently snowed/iced over, so I can't get good pics.
                        (as you can see from the first pic)

                        However, I grabbed screenshots from Google Earth, posted below.

                        #3 shows the location.
                        #4 is just Google's 3D view rotated to provide a different perspective (albeit distorted).

                        Neither of these show the elevation, which is a lot.
                        From the grass to the "beach" is about a 40' drop. The hill is very steep.

                        The highlighted area is not actually green, its just a tree hanging over.
                        As mentioned, the area was artificially created, 30 years ago, by piling up rocks. So its about 12 feet above the water line.
                        Its stable and hasn't moved in the last 10 years. (Ok, no guarantee, but...)

                        The spot is very exposed to wind, rain and sun. But well protected from the lake, which is my main structural concern.
                        You can see there's a very effective break wall just outside. The shoreline faces due east. And the prevailing wind hits from the left. Wave/ice action inside the "harbour" is very slight.

                        The existing deck has drooped about 6" in places. But I don't know if its the rocks shifting or if the deck was never well braced in the first place (it didnt need to be)
                        (the changes happen so slow and we rarely used the deck. It was intended to store boats, but I never understood how the boats were supposed to levitate 12 feet up onto the deck. !?!?)

                        Also below is a very crude sketch showing the elevation, but it will hopefully describe things better.
                        (I fought with Google Sketchup for a while, but I need more practice to do architectural drawings)

                        The studio would be no wider than existing rock pile. Must be under 500 sq ft, likely be about 20 x 12 ft, your basic rectangle with a sloped roof.
                        Windows towards the water side, solid back wall. Entrance on the side. Sheet metal roof.

                        The earth slope behind is heavily forested and likely very full of rocks. Every spot around there is rocks.
                        When the spot for MY workshop was cleared, with a large backhoe, they founds rocks 4' OD, which were moved.
                        Others were up to 6' OD, which where beyond the backhoe's capabilities. We just jiggled the plan and pour concrete over the largest rocks.

                        I suspect the slope is not much better and drilling anything might be impossible.
                        And its almost impossible to get large machinery in there.

                        (OK - a huge backhoe was used to create the shoreline originally. A guy had it strapped on top of a barge, which launched at the nearest harbour. Then he pulled himself along the shallow bottom, with the bucket until he got there. Amazing to watch. He redid most of the street over one summer and made a small fortune. He came by every 10 years to so, but haven't seen him in a long time)

                        Hope all this info helps! And I appreciate the feedback

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                          Slightly off topic, but can shorelines still be manipulated like that where you are? We can not put even a pile within the flood plain around here.
                          Rob

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                            so to address a few of the points mentioned above.

                            1 - screw piles - seem like they go into regular ground, which "might" be possible in the slope behind. I assume the take vertical weight, down, and some lateral resistance. ( I dont have any experience with these) As mentioned, rocks abound and its virtually impossible to get heavy machinery in. I assume they can't go into rocks at all.

                            My father has a place in northern Georgian Bay, build on top of large rock sheets (typical Canadian shield) contractors there just drilled into the rock, sank piles and built a floating base for the cottage.

                            My only concern this solution is if any of my rocks move. I would need a solution to adjust for that.

                            2 - Cantilever. I may be able to anchor footings on the slope, digging by hand and poring concrete (that will need to be carried in). Build a stiff platform, where the weight sits on the rocks. But any significant twist in the platform might be problematic. I "might" be able to bring in steel beams and have them welded on site. Seems workable

                            3 - Inverted roof truss idea. Seems like a good way to build that stiff platform. Would raise the height, which is ok. I presume it will need to be anchored at the slope?
                            Do you have a picture I can reference?

                            4 - ground screws - is that the same as screw piles?

                            Again, thanks for the ideas and feedback

                            Olaf

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: New shop - on the rocks...

                              Originally posted by iamtooler View Post
                              Slightly off topic, but can shorelines still be manipulated like that where you are? We can not put even a pile within the flood plain around here.
                              Rob
                              I was wondering the same thing.

                              We aren't allowed to build anything within 150' of the high water line of the lake. Our house is about 300' from the water.

                              P.S. Some of the older subdivisions around the lake could build right up to the water though.
                              Mike @ Buck Lake

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