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  • WhiskeyJack77
    started a topic Heaters and Heat Sources.

    Heaters and Heat Sources.

    Hello Forum.

    As i find myself enjoying more hands on shop projects my wife has sadly kicked me out of the basement now that it is 'livable" and into the garage. I still would like to keep working through the winter but rumor has it power tools and and finishing materials like wood glue, stain, and other aerosols don't love to cure in sub zero temps . I live in Grande Prairie, Alberta and my garage roof/ ceiling in my garage is not insulated or finished so it stays pretty sub zero most of the winter.

    The logical thing would be to insulate, ventilate, finish and install a gas heater into this little garage but financially that is just way to out there until i win that 60 million.

    Anyone else out there with a shop like this? How do you heat it? What is a good cost effective short term heating solution to keep my going. I understand my heat will largely be flying out of the roof vents but if i want to do a bit of work out there this winter i'd like to come up with something so i am not forced to wait until spring for the nicer weather.



  • Jerome
    replied
    Don't discount electrical heat I tracked my use in 2017 and from Jan 1 to April 22 it only cost me $301.84. my shop is 2 stories 20X32 with 3"avg Spray foam I was only heating the upstairs but the downstairs never froze. I was using a 4000watt heater on a programmable t stat set at 50*. I do have a gas line run to the shop but it would cost me $2000 in equipment and install and I'm not sure How much I would save by using gas.
    Last edited by Jerome; 11-24-2018, 10:38 AM.

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  • Egon
    replied
    Propane and gas need different sized jets with the natural gas being larger. Drilling out is pretty simple but the local regulations may not allow it. You also have to know what the jet size should be. The drill bits are quite small and usually have a hand driven holder. That said it should be left to certified folks.

    Ive got a little holder filled with the required drill sizes!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    That proves you're losing a lot of heat and it's dangerous. Bare minimum put a fan behind it and make sure it's got a super strong thimble.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigshow
    replied
    It glows cherry red when in use, I had to put a 5" stove pipe around it for safety.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigshow View Post
    the chimney for my oil burner is decommisioned tube heater pipes
    Don't touch the pipe! lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigshow
    replied
    the chimney for my oil burner is decommisioned tube heater pipes

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    You are going to lose the majority of your heat thru the roof. I have R12 in the walls and probably R60 or more, blown in cellulose in the ceiling. Minus 30 or 40 here and I wear a T shirt in the shop. OH door is R13 or R16,,,, I forget. Radiant tube NG heater that I've been telling guys to use for years and years and those that followed my advice come on here and rave about their system.

    BTW. question for John,,, How did you pump in R16 cellulose without vapour barrier or am I misunderstanding. You could do it if it's boarded of course but why would you? Really curious about that one. I'm betting I missed something.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigshow
    replied
    My garage is heated with a homemade waste oil burner and my new woodshop is heated with a constrauction heater. Yesterday was around -17 when I got home and I was fine in the shop with just the oil burner going in the garage and the door to the shop open. didnt need to run the electric. the waste oil burner vents outside and doesnt ad moisture to the air afaik. I got a quote for sprayfoaming the shop and I think I'll just suck it up and wear a jacket if it really gets cold.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim DaddyO
    replied
    I am still debating on how to heat my shop. I need to run the electric to it yet. When I do, is it advisable to bury a NG gas line when I do? Electric heat will be out of the question due to operating costs (Ontario). Propane is the other option. Small heaters seem to skyrocket in price as soon as you look at vented appliances. I only need about 7,000 btu according to my research (12 x 20, decently insulted with VB and good windows). High on the list of things I am considering is a propane furnace (used) meant for large RV use. Another question would be if these can be converted to NG? Far cheaper and more convenient than propane bottles. I am only running 60A to the shop, I have mulled mini split, but they are expensive to buy and are electric too, so I am worried about the cost of running it.

    I don't mean to derail the thread, but I thought my situation fits into the conversation nicely and the answers would help the OP.

    Leave a comment:


  • guitarchitect
    replied
    you can also get a lot of moisture in attics if they aren't properly vented - they can get very moldy during the summer months and icy in the winter when warm air gets in but has nowhere to go. proper soffit vents and mushroom vents induce air flow to keep air moving up and out, and chances are in an older house you will need to install baffles near the eaves to ensure the insulation doesn't block the vents (especially if it's blown insulation). this is an important consideration if you're looking to insulate your shop ceiling's trusses.

    VB is important but you can do it several ways - you can install a poly sheet type of product but you can also use paint on your taped drywall. As long as it is less than 1 perm it will pass as a vapour barrier - benjamin moore, zissner, and sherwin williams all make paint and primers that meet this spec.

    generally speaking, and depending on your climate, anything above R14 isn't really doing much for what you're paying for when it comes to walls. see here for an example of the diminishing returns of adding insulation. My recently built shop has R14 walls and a R20 ceiling and it sits stable at 15C using a 1500W electric garage heater at around 60-75%. If I crank it higher I can keep the shop at 20C pretty easily. It's not the fastest at heating the shop, and it's noisy, and creates a lot of air turbulence... but it certainly gets the job done! If I can earn some shop dollars by selling some projects I'd like to go towards a mini split system with a heatpump, and maybe get a radiant panel for the workbench area (cove heater or ceiling panel like the ones on electricheatcanada.ca)

    Leave a comment:


  • John Bartley
    replied
    One of the variables that doesn't seem to get noticed when garages and moisture are combined in the same story, is the moisture that come up thru' the floor. In this garage where am now the floor is pretty good for staying dry, but because we are on clay (real clay, not clay loam), any moisture sits on top of the clay and wicks up thru' the floor. The floor was poured on a gravel pad, but knowing who built it I'd say the gravel is pretty thin.

    In Stittsville (Ottawa) my garage could be used for dehydrating stuff. There was a full foundation and footings down five feet, back filled with pit run sand/stone when I bought the unfinished mess. I finished the block foundation and built the garage. Before I poured the floor I installed a centre drain to a dry well at the rear of the garage, with the drain pipe down below the footing into a boulder filled well. Then I covered the graded gravel floor with 6mil plastic before having the concrete guys come in and finish the job. The first year (maybe two) all I could afford was vapour barrier, but because there was no moisture source I had no issues with frost on the barrier or underside of the roof. Here in the north is 100% a different story. I started with 4" of pink fibreglass (when I bought) and had some frost on the roof underside. I installed about 14"-16" of cellulose (blown in). Even without the vapour barrier I haven't had any frosting since .... caveat .... it wasn't that bad to begin with.

    Point is .... moisture can come from many places, not just the air or the heat source.

    cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • RV Sam
    replied
    I wasn't going to touch this but will for the sake of the OP i have to jump in. I burnt 100 dollars bills to heat my shop, oooops.. SORRY, you did mention your were on a tight budget. Guess the guys sniffed to much toxic materials this week.
    Many moons ago i started out just as you. At first i did bring things into the house and even did some assembly in the house. I used small heaters of many types in the shop to take the chill off. One winter i sectioned off a corner and insulated it. It was just large enough to store my freezable's in and a very small walk area. An electric heater did the trick and saved trips to the house. If you are going to do this as a hobby then there will be months maybe that you will not want to play in the shop. Those will be free months for ya. If you can get into something you like playing with in the shop and can sell to bring in a few dollars then turn that back into materials and do as Rusty mentioned in his first post. That is something you can do over years, just take your time and do it right the first time. You just may end up with a nice warm nest sooner then you think. Good luck at ya.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    Originally posted by WhiskeyJack77 View Post
    I have been transplanted in grande prairie for 10 years. I came here by way of the Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia (I left when i was 29) and i have seen what rusty is talking about in my brothers old house in GP. I hadn't ever seen it before back east? I don't think we have such radical temp swings on the east coast. We had a week or two of really mild temps and alot of fog, haze mist in the dead of winter and then over night the temps dropped off to the typical January February -40 -50 C chill and all that moisture froze in his attic and when it warmed up a month or so later he had a real mess on his hands. it was pouring buckets out of his attic hatch.

    I don't wantto have that happen in my garage so whatever iend up doing i need to avoid those situations but in that one instance at my brothers house i think it was unavoidable?
    Jack the situation your brother had is very similar to a situation I had in a home I had to service in Edmonton in 1980. The house is 1 block north of West Edmonton Mall for those who know the area. I've told this story before for some who may remember. The house had been occupied for about 6 months and heated with a typical gas furnace. The homeowner complained about grey areas appearing on his ceiling in the spring. When I went up in the attic to investigate there was a huge buildup of frost and ice on the underside of the plywood roof sheathing. I described it as looking like winter wonderland. To make a long story short, the furnace B vent exhaust pipe had somehow separated and some of the hot exhaust was leaking into the attic. The warm air came in contact with minus 30 plywood and froze, forming the ice and frost which was melting in the spring warmth. Obviously the vapour barrier and insulation were in place properly but the B vent which twists together like a jar lid had been twisted loose by someone's error. Maybe a roofer fitting a storm collar under his shingles had somehow twisted it loose. We did the cleanup and repairs and I can tell you it was big job. Another occasion involved a house I had built in South Edmonton where the homeowner complained of a huge heating bill. Once again I will shorten the story. I called my insulators and gave them 11 houses to spray the attics. 10 were all in a row and one was across the street on the corner. They did 10 and missed doing the 11th. Once again the attic was winter wonderland. Another big cleanup but not as bad as the first house which was full of soaking wet insulation but we still had to remove all the ice and frost off the roof sheathing and roof trusses. I'm telling of these two because they differ in the causes. One was flue gas leaking into the attic space and the other was simply warm air migrating up to the underside of very cold roof sheathing and freezing. In the first case one could easily assume the moisture cause was the gas exhaust and the moisture in the gas. On the second the only thing present was warm air and a cold surface but the results were in fact the same.

    In another post in this thread I mentioned different fuels like propane, coal oil etc. with open flames, in temporary heaters, would emit differing amounts of moisture as well but were also dangerous to the point of killing you because they are not vented. I believe some of that should be obvious but apparently it isn't.

    I've told this story before too; one of my best friends was finishing a poured concrete floor in a basement for me. We were using the same temporary heat. and it was at least -30 or more. In fact it was the same house as the one I described as a rain forest. Maybe that description is a bit colourful but I think most everyone got the point. Anyone who knows concrete finishing and power trowels know they emit carbon monoxide and finishing a floor takes hours in lousy weather. Luckily I came onto the job earlier in the morning and managed to rescue my friend who had passed out while finishing the floor. He had been on the job all night. Now was that a combination of the power trowel motor exhaust and the temporary construction heaters or just one or the other. I always thought the heaters were the major culprit because they were running constantly and the power trowel was intermittent. For those who don't know you finish a floor by going back over it time and time again and if you are lax you will lose the floor. My friend was a perfectionist and damn good at it and if it took another 2 hours to do the job his attitude was; "so be it."

    Good luck with your decisions Jack.

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  • schor
    replied
    Originally posted by WhiskeyJack77 View Post
    Thanks everyone i think i jumped the shark on this big time. Possibly to eager to stay busy this winter. I think i definitely need to get it insulated and finished. Cart nefore the horse i think. So ill just close the door on the heating thing for now. The quickest simplest way to keep it warm as it is now is electricly or something (someone mentioned propane or kerosene but they seem like not great the safest options) and where it is unfinished and three roof vents to the outside put in earlier this year i may just as well burn a stack of five dollar bills for warmth.🤣🤣🤣😞

    Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

    Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk
    I used a stand up 1500watt radiant heater for a while and just turned it on pointed at the largest cast iron machine I had for 4 hours, then moved it around and pointed at me when I was out there doing things.

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