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Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

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  • Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

    I'm in the middle of upgrading my dust collector to a Clearvue 1800. It's mostly installed now, but I'm having a problem with the bleeder hose I use to facilitate using plastic bags.

    I've used this type of system for years, it worked great on my old system - a 2hp CX405 with a super dust deputy. You just take a length of plastic hose, connect it with a nipple to the intake of the DC, then connect the other end the same way to the bottom of your collection barrel. A brillo pad taped over the hole on the inside of the barrel ensures that the bag doesn't block the bleeder hose. This type of system has been posted about here a lot in the past.

    I'm having a problem getting it to work with the clearvue though, and I can't figure out why.

    The barrel is a translucent plastic of some sort. I've used it before. I have rubber pipe insulation stuck on around the top of the barrel to act as a gasket to get a good seal against the lid. I've done that before too, with great success. The hose is a 10' length of clear hose, 5/8" i.d.

    Now, with the barrel removed from under the cyclone (and a piece of cardboard placed over the cyclone opening to temporarily seal it up) I can turn on the unit and I can see the bleeder hose work very effectively. It sucks that bag right down, and within about 30 seconds the bag is stuck entirely to the insides of the barrel, all over, as if it's been shrink wrapped.

    I used a burning incense stick, and smoke tested all over and couldn't find any leaks anywhere. The bag pulls quite tightly over the barrel top, and the seal there seems to be good. I also couldn't find any leaks anywhere else on the clearvue. When I stick the barrel under the cyclone and turn it on, initially it all looks good. Again with the incense stick, I can't find any leaks anywhere, and for about the first 2 minutes the bag appears to be behaving itself (you get a "clear view" of it right through the cyclone...) and staying stuck down. After about 2 minutes though, slowly the sides of the bag start to shake and collapse in towards the centre, and once the all meet in the centre, at about the 5 minute mark, the bottom slowly rises up and the bag starts to go up into the cyclone.

    Since I can't find any leaks anywhere, I'm wondering if the clearvue is just too powerful for the bleeder hose? Maybe if I upgraded to a larger hose? Or maybe just added a second one to another spot on the barrel? Any thoughts or ideas?

    Thanks!

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  • #2

    Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

    Ryan, I want you to keep a few things in mind or even test.

    First use the bleeder line to evacuate all the air. Then unplug and tape the port. Tape the top edge of the bag down. If you have a perfect seal you will not be able to hand pull the bag out of the bin. You can do this with the bin not attached to the cyclone.

    If there is any holes anywhere including the vacuum line the bag will pull up. You need a slight more vacuum pressure in that vacuum line then in the DC. To do this you have to introduce more static pressure with more leaks (or open gates) in the dust collection runs. So you want to have the vacuum line as close as you can to the intake of the cyclone. You will also want to have a very short vacuum line. You could make yourself a manometer to check your water column suction. Maybe, I’’ll stop in next weekend (and bring mine), as I’ll be up your way. Maybe, I can check out the bar your building too.
    Last edited by Matt Matt; 07-14-2018, 06:52 PM.
    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    Sir Isaac Newton.

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    • #3

      Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

      I have a clearvu1800 and would love to figure out a way to get a bag into the large plastic barrel that I have. Right now the cyclone works perfect but fills up petty quick and it's a real mess to get the barrel out and emptied.
      Matt

      People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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      • #4

        Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

        Thanks Matt! I think I might need to take you up on that! It would be great to have you stop in anyway, but this problem here has really got me scratching my head.

        It's difficult to remove the hoses - they were such a tight fit on the barbs that I had to soften them up with the heat gun to get them on, then I caulked them just to be sure. But while the DC was running (with the barrel off the cyclone and the cyclone sealed with the piece of cardboard) you can pull the bag up a bit. I mean, it's not easy, it almost feels like you're about to tear the bag, but you can do it.

        I decided to go ahead and try increasing the bleeder hose. The one I had was 5/8" i.d., so I bought one that was bigger - it's 3/4" i.d. Then when I went to install it, I was going to replace the 5/8" one, then I thought, what the heck, why not just have two? So I installed the second one on the bottom of the barrel opposite the first one. I put the bag in and placed the cardboard and turned the DC on. As expected, the bag sucks down super fast. It takes about 15 seconds to suck completely down. I really thought this was going to be the magic ticket, but when I put the barrel under the cyclone and turned the unit back on, I found that the opposite was true: it works even worse now. Before it was a couple minutes before the bag sucked up into the cyclone, but now it sucks up in about 30 seconds! Clearly there's something about the physics of this that my brain is just not quite getting right.

        Any thoughts?

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        • #5

          Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

          I gave up on mine and put a crazy carpet inside the bag to keep it down. I got tired of cleaning out my filters. Crazy carpets sure lack the rigidity and quality from when I was a kid.

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          • #6

            Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

            If you figure it out I might try it again.

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            • #7

              Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

              I just received the following email from the clearvue people:

              I am happy to help!



              I have heard of customers using a bleeder hose to hold their liner in place with other systems, however I have not heard of great results with our system. The suction is simply too strong. The can is under negative pressure (suction) ? and in fact it the air is pulled through the can first and then in through the intake. While I have not tried it myself, I cannot imagine a point at which the negative pressure generated at the intake would be stronger than the negative pressure through the can.



              Instead, I recommend securing the bag in place. This is only necessary when the can is empty ? as it starts to fill up, the contents will hold the liner in place. People have used all sorts of methods ? magnets on long strings, wooden framework that matches the interior dimensions of the drum, etc. You can also simply throw a heavy chunk of wood in the can to hold the liner in place. I believe that there are several threads posted on our forum about it as well. There?s a link to our forum located under the section for Community on our website.

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              • #8

                Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                I used the same idea as Peter but instead of a crazy carpet I used a piece of laminate I had laying around and covered the edges so they wouldn’t tear the bag.
                Jamie www.turneddesignsbyjamie.etsy.com

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                • #9

                  Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                  Update time.

                  Our own mattmatt stopped by with his handy dandy water meter, and we found that at the main inlet of My DC I was pulling 11 units of water, and at the end of the bleeder hose I was also pulling 11 units. To me this was confirmation of what the clearvue people said: that my bleeder would never be able to over-power the main.

                  Looking at the clearvue cyclone design, Matt suggested that I could run the bleeder hose through the cyclone outer wall and connect it directly to the impeller manifold and I'd probably get a stronger draw from there. Looking at it, my bet is that he's right, but I was too chicken to do that kind of surgery on this new clearvue, so instead I decided to give up on the bleeder hose, for now, and just work on some sort of inner frame idea instead.

                  My first attempt was the oft suggested crazy carpet. I grabbed two of them and taped them together. I installed a bag and dropped the carpets in. They unfolded just right, everything looked good. But when I powered up the clearvue, the carpets just collapsed and the bag and carpets started coming up into the cyclone!

                  I read online about other clearvue owners making a cage type design, with a round hoop on the top with rods or dowels coming down every couple inches. Just drop it into the barrel when the bag is empty, slide it out when it's time to change the bag. This idea seemed best to me, because I'd already learned that it's not enough just to secure the bottom of the bag, you also need to keep the sides of the bag from closing in at the top and choking off the barrel.

                  I made my frame by cutting a 1" wide hoop out of 3/4" ply using my band saw. Then I drilled 1/2" holes every 6" and glued and pinned in long dowels. I'll see if I can post a pic here, if not, next post I will.
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                  I figured that would work pretty good.

                  And for the first minute, it did.

                  But the clearvue really wants to suck that bag upwards, and it tries to do that with great force, and the upward pull on the bag puts force on the dowels to collapse inward. The plywood ring should have stopped that, but I guess plywood is no match for the clearvue:

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                  So as you can see, it's simply snapped the plywood ring in half!

                  So at this point I called my friend Mike, who besides being more clever than me can also weld.

                  We tweaked the design - adding a second ring on the bottom - and made it out of 1/4" steel rod:

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                  I tried it out yesterday milling a load of fluffy basswood. The cage slides in and out easily, and the results speak for themselves!

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                  I'll probably keep refining this design, and in time I need to figure out a larger collection bin anyway, but for now I think this will work.

                  Thanks!
                  Attached Files

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                  • #10

                    Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                    That's impressive that it cracked the plywood, that thing must really suck. The metal cage looks like a nice solution, do you have something soft on the end of the rods so it doesn't pierce the bag when you put it in?

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                    • #11

                      Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                      Thanks Craig! Yup, the metal hoop you see at the top, there is an identical one on the bottom. That primarily keeps the ends of the rods from catching on the bag, but we also made sure to grind the bottom all nice and smooth.

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                      • #12

                        Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                        Nice work, Ryan. I can't remember... do you have a window in your dust bin to visually monitor the level or are you using a bin sensor?

                        David

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                        • #13

                          Re: Problem with Bags & Bleeder Hose, Clearvue 1800

                          Thanks David. Right now I have neither. The barrel itself is translucent and I use clear bags, so I can pretty much see just by looking at it. As well, with the clearvue you get a, ehem, clear view, so it's really easy to see when the chips start filling up the flex hose connection and the bottom of the cyclone.

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