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Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

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  • Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

    Any users out there? Did you make one that fits into the bucket or as a top hat on top of the bucket? How well did it work as compared to just using the inlet/outlet piping? How much do you think it cuts down on suction?

    Thanks
    Cheers
    Randy

  • #2

    Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

    Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

    I have one on my shopvac, fits in a 75L metal garbage can. It does seem to cut down a little bit on suction, but that might be the 2" sewer pipe I am using for ducting as well. Still will pick up lots of sawdust, just won't suck up heavier nails/screws, but I see that as a bonus. I have emptied the bucket 3 times and the bag in the vacuum barely has anything in it.

    When I eventually upgrade to a real dust collector it will have a thien seperator on it as well.
    I'm only responsible for what i say, not for what you understand.

    If you can't fix it with a hammer, You have an electrical problem.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

      Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

      Originally posted by Randy in Calgary View Post
      Any users out there? Did you make one that fits into the bucket or as a top hat on top of the bucket? How well did it work as compared to just using the inlet/outlet piping? How much do you think it cuts down on suction?

      Thanks
      Randy -- Why don't you stop over and see how much suction mine has and you can compare from there?? Your's will definitely have more and I have plenty.

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

        Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

        Originally posted by Wally in Calgary View Post
        Randy -- Why don't you stop over and see how much suction mine has and you can compare from there?? Your's will definitely have more and I have plenty.
        I don't think you have a thein baffle do you Wally? I thought you only had the top hat? I'm off on holidays until the 22nd starting tomorrow afternoon. I'll touch base when I get back.
        Cheers
        Randy

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

          If you are wanting to improve your single stage DC, not your shop vac**, then give serious thought to the Oneida Super Dust Deputy. It should deliver decent 2 stage performance. The Thien separator is a basic knock out concept that has out lived it's usefulness. There are simply better ways now to improve your dust collection.
          I have no first hand experience with the Super Dust Deputy, but based on reports from owners of the Dust Deputy and the Clear Vue Mini, cyclone technology is easily scaleable. The little guy performs the same as the big guy.
          The suction side of the Super is 6", the inlet is 5", this allows you to use move the 4" reduction closer to the tools.

          I'm not a big Oneida fan, but this product could well have a place in every shop running a single stage DC.

          Don

          **There are cyclones for shop vacs, just not the Super Dust Deputy.

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

            Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

            I made mine to fit into the top of my 1.5 hp DC. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I would guess suction is slightly diminished, however, it maintains suction for way longer than before, and when I give the bag a few whacks, almost nothing falls down from the filter, whereas previously the dust and debris rained down.


            Originally posted by Randy in Calgary View Post
            Any users out there? Did you make one that fits into the bucket or as a top hat on top of the bucket? How well did it work as compared to just using the inlet/outlet piping? How much do you think it cuts down on suction?

            Thanks

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

              Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

              Originally posted by Don Burch View Post
              If you are wanting to improve your single stage DC, not your shop vac**, then give serious thought to the Oneida Super Dust Deputy. It should deliver decent 2 stage performance. The Thien separator is a basic knock out concept that has out lived it's usefulness. There are simply better ways now to improve your dust collection.
              I have no first hand experience with the Super Dust Deputy, but based on reports from owners of the Dust Deputy and the Clear Vue Mini, cyclone technology is easily scaleable. The little guy performs the same as the big guy.
              The suction side of the Super is 6", the inlet is 5", this allows you to use move the 4" reduction closer to the tools.

              I'm not a big Oneida fan, but this product could well have a place in every shop running a single stage DC.

              Don

              **There are cyclones for shop vacs, just not the Super Dust Deputy.
              Don, a lot of woodworkers have built the Thien separators and are very satisfied with the results. Do you have experience with them? In what way are they lacking?

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                Originally posted by Rick Thom View Post
                Don, a lot of woodworkers have built the Thien separators and are very satisfied with the results. Do you have experience with them? In what way are they lacking?
                As I said, the Thein baffle is a concept that has out lived its usefulness. There are better solutions today that fit well with budgets, convenience and overall efficiency.
                The Thien device filled a gap when most shops had single stage pumps with who know what for a top filter bag. It simply places a baffle in the gas stream which introduces sufficient changes in velocity and direction to allow the heaviest dust particles to settle out. The concept of good 2 stage duct collection had not yet hit the non industrial/commercial market. Since Pentz started stirring things up and at least giving people something to think about, many manufacturers have not only improved but added new products in the 2 stage arena.
                I have no direct experience with the Thein baffle but have a 45 gallon drum with a standard trash can separator lid. My own experience with good 2 stage cyclonic separation comes use of the ClearVue Mini CV, a colleague's commercial use of a Pentz design cyclone, comments from members of this forum -R Sherridan, MReza and feedback form other forums from people who finally moved to 2 stage separation from the shop vac level right up to the 3-5 HP shop units from Oneida and Clear Vue.



                The whole exercise is to get workshop health and safety beyond satisfactory. I bought my single stage unit when I didn't know any better. I installed a knock out drum for convenience and was surprised at how little actual carried over to the DC. But I knew nothing about dust. Once I learned about dust, I quickly found there was nothing available that would come close to improving the separation efficiency of my 2HP dust pump. Had something like the Super Dust Deputy been on the market, I would have tried it. $300 vs $1000+ for a true cyclone. I would not have been the dumbest investment I have made.
                And after stopping smoking in 2002 () I have always had a few surplus bucks in the budget for this woodworking fetish.

                So when people start looking for dust collection options, I like to get up on the box and try to steer people away from satisfactory towards the best I know of.
                This dust we deal with is bad stuff, one of the quietest and most lethal products in your shop.
                If you can't breathe, you simply cannot do a lot of things.
                Sorry if this is to over the top.

                Don

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                  Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                  Originally posted by Don Burch View Post
                  As I said, the Thein baffle is a concept that has out lived its usefulness. There are better solutions today that fit well with budgets, convenience and overall efficiency.
                  First, I think it is important to note that you have never thought my design had much in the way of merrit. Your posts about my design have been quite negative from the very start:

                  http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...hien-Separator

                  That post goes back two years now, including your quote that "The Thien separator is not a cyclone. It is a slight improvement on the trash can separator designed to keep as much particulate as possible in the trash can for ease of disposal and is not based on any real science."

                  First, I like how you imply that it is a bad thing when my separator design keeps particulate in the trash can. Isn't that the point? Also, what makes you think there is no science involved in my work?

                  You know, the more work I've done in this area, the more I'm convinced of one thing: Conventional cyclones are no panacea.

                  Besides speaking to countless people around the world about my own design, I've also spoken to at least a dozen people about what can be done to improve their conventional cyclones. I get the same question each time: Is there anything I can do to make my cyclone separate more of the fines?

                  The problem seems especially prevelent among those using any sort of drum or belt sanders. These devices generate a very fine talc-like dust that bypasses any cyclone, and eventually plugs the final filter stage.

                  As an experiment, I once used my drum sander to sand a reddish exotic, with the dust going to my separator first, and then to my Ridgid shop vac (with a drywall bag installed). After sanding for about 20-30 minutes, I found the filter of my shop vac had a very slight red tinge to it. So my separator was certainly missing stuff. And even the drywall bag was missing some stuff. Amazing to think about how fine that dust was. It was, in fact, like red smoke.

                  This was some time ago, and my conclusion (at the time) was that my design was no match for a conventional cyclone.

                  So I started contacting people with cyclones, like Steve Knight (has a CV). With all the marketing I had been subjected to, I expected to hear that these user's filters rarely needed cleaning. What I learned, though, was the opposite. In fact, Mr. Knight had recently replaced his cart. filters with bag filters, which he found easier to keep clean. If you generate fine dust, it does make it through to the filter stage, even with a CV cyclone.

                  I'm sure everyone here has seen the pics of people that went to empty their filter stack's clean-out, but found nothing. But the dust isn't in the clean-out, it is in the pleats. The only people that don't have dust in their pleats are people that don't use their shops to do any woodworking, they just have a "show-shop" (believe me, I've run into a few of those).

                  Anyway, my design hasn't outlived its usefulness. On the contrary, I think it is pushing the envelope for what can be done in limited space with limited resources ($).

                  Now, I just looked at Oneida's page for the SDD. It states "High efficiency cyclone separates 98% of wood waste before filter." So 2% is still hitting the filters. Oneida doesn't specify if the spec. is by weight, volume, or count. Or whether the test media was kept to a certain size range.

                  I just emptied my 30-gallon drum yesterday, I fill it to about 25-gallons before emptying it. This is my third time since installing a new drywall bag in my shop vac. I install new bags from time to time just so I can measure the old bag's weight and volume of contents.

                  I pulled my shop vac's bag this morning, weighed it, and found it contained 19.9 ounces of debris. All super-fine talc. I will get a volume for you tonight. By volume I'm doing way better than 2%. By weight, I have to admit I don't weigh the dust in the drum (I will from now on), but I promise I'm also doing way better than 2%.

                  Also note: While I just two weeks ago sold by drum sander, I have been a notorious drum-sander abuser, using it to final-thickness stock because I didn't have a lunchbox planer. I'd joint one side and one edge of my stock, then I'd resaw close to final thickness, then I'd sand to final thickness. It just took too long to install the planer head on my Inca, and this was also a good way to test my separator.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                    Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                    Originally posted by Phil Thien View Post
                    Mr. Knight had recently replaced his cart. filters with bag filters, which he found easier to keep clean.
                    I would have to agree with Mr Knight, it's the reason that I haven't switched the 1 micron felt bag that came with the Delta 50-760 that I have. The only reason that I could see switching over would be ceiling height issues, and I don't have that. If I switched to a pleated filter it would cost me atleast $150 to gain a 1/2 of a micron in filtering, and it would probably clog faster. In my opinion, pleated filters are alot of hype and are just a fad.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                      Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                      Originally posted by SawSucker View Post
                      I would have to agree with Mr Knight, it's the reason that I haven't switched the 1 micron felt bag that came with the Delta 50-760 that I have. The only reason that I could see switching over would be ceiling height issues, and I don't have that. If I switched to a pleated filter it would cost me atleast $150 to gain a 1/2 of a micron in filtering, and it would probably clog faster. In my opinion, pleated filters are alot of hype and are just a fad.
                      Mr. Knight had the luxury of building a plenum that feeds three or four "floor to ceiling" "socks" that terminate on the ground at (I think) a 5-gallon bucket. So he can just "shake the cake" and have it fall into the buckets, and his cleaning is complete.

                      For people with more limited room, I can see the advantage of the cart. filter. I wouldn't even be able to accommodate a 50-760 in my basement, it would be too tall without going to a cart. filter.

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                        Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                        So I think my thread has been hijacked. My original question was whether the thien separator reduced the suction substantially or marginally. My 2 HP cannister has loads of suction right now, so much so that I have to choke the blast gate on the overarm blade guard to prevent the insert from rising up. That's a good thing. I don't want to go to the trouble off making a thien separator if it will result in anemic suction as the saw.

                        Yes yes cyclones are better, blah blah blah. I get that, but I'm sticking to the DC I have.
                        Cheers
                        Randy

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                          Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                          Originally posted by Randy in Calgary View Post
                          So I think my thread has been hijacked. My original question was whether the thien separator reduced the suction substantially or marginally. My 2 HP cannister has loads of suction right now, so much so that I have to choke the blast gate on the overarm blade guard to prevent the insert from rising up. That's a good thing. I don't want to go to the trouble off making a thien separator if it will result in anemic suction as the saw.

                          Yes yes cyclones are better, blah blah blah. I get that, but I'm sticking to the DC I have.
                          Well, to directly answer your question somewhat directly, yes, you introduce substantial losses by adding one of my separators.

                          For most, the losses from plugged filters are far greater, and come fairly quickly, so a Thien separator is a worthwhile compromise.

                          But there is no free lunch, you will notice an immediate reduction in airflow if you add a separator.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                            Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                            I had mentioned I'd measure the volume of the debris in the current drywall bag and wanted to follow-up.

                            There were almost 8 cups of very fine talc-list dust in the bag. Or, 1/2-gallon.

                            So 1/2-gallon is .67% of 75-gallons. So my separator is getting 99.33% on this last test.

                            Sorry for the hijack. This thread will return to its normal programming now.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                              Re: Anyone using Thein Separator Lid with a DC?

                              Are you sure that's not a 45 gal. drum???

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