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  • #16

    Re: Setup question.

    Re: Setup question.

    As you progress through this, you may well find that this unit simply does not have enough capacity to do what you want. I am reluctant to encourage you to spend a lot of money unnecessarily as you might find better value in the used market.
    You need to increase the surface area of the exhaust filter. You bag may give you 30-50 sq ft, where you should have 1 sq ft for every 2 CFM of capacity. You do this with a pleated cartridge or a very large felt bag.
    This is a good kit, but Wynn are not warm to shipping to Canada.
    http://wynnenv.com/?s=35A
    You have a manufacturer in Hamilton - Maddocks Group, who might have a similar unit - not the kit, but the element.

    When you have nothing attached tot he unit and you turn it on, that is the maximum air flow you can expect. As you connect ducting and equipment, the fan speed increases. This is because the fan is moving less air, doing less work. As the filter plugs up, the fan turns faster because it moves less air. It then follows that bigger ducting and bigger filter area allows the fan to move more air, thus run slower. You can actually overload the motor by having it move to much air.
    In theory, sealing off all of the leaks around your saw and trying to direct most of the airflow past the blade opening will not gain you much. The actual CFM at the opening will be minimal, your fan will be running at top speed, doing little work.

    I hope you always wear a very good respirator while in you shop.

    Good luck.

    Don

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    • #17

      Re: Setup question.

      Re: Setup question.

      Thanks for the comments Don.

      Upgrading the filter is on my list, didn't realise it improved the flow so significantly too though, thought it was just better at capturing the smaller particles.

      The Wynne kit at only $177 is certainly cheaper than the oem one from General making it more in reach sooner too. I'll check out the Maddox group too since they're local.

      Comment


      • #18

        Re: Setup question.

        Re: Setup question.

        Originally posted by altiplano View Post
        So I've been tweaking my DC system and would appreciate any thoughts...

        I have a GI 1.5 HP bag type unit. I also have a Veritas cyclone lid on a 44 gallon container that I recently hooked up to reduce the need to empty the bag as often.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]82608[/ATTACH]

        I don't have any permanent ducting just a 10' flex I move from machine to machine. My collection from my jointer and planer is pretty good I think, but at my tablesaw it kinda lacks. My saw is a job site style saw on a gravity stand similar to this:

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]82606[/ATTACH]

        I put plywood underneath to close the area off. It has a hookup for a shop vac, but that doesn't work well with a reducer on the 4" flex hose so I have just been clamping the 4" hose to the back over the dust port and the space around it.

        Yesterday I thought I'd improve it so cut a hole in the bottom ply to accommodate a hvac piece similar to a register hook up right under the blade, and reduced that to the 4" duct going to the can, I plugged up most of the holes around the sides too.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]82607[/ATTACH]

        This morning I fired it up and ripped some scrap to test it out. I thought I'd notice an improvement. While I don't see many chips accumulated in the 'cabinet' because they go straight into the pick up (before it was pretty much full on the bottom), I feel like there is more dust on the top of the table... I guess I've lost some airspeed with my change 4" expanding to a 6" fitting? At any rate, it needs more tweaking.

        I have 6" duct from the impeller to the cyclone lid then 4". The cyclone lid is pretty nice with the jointer and planer, but the tablesaw doesn't produce as much waste so I don't mind bypassing it and emptying the bag more if it will make an improvement.

        If I split that 6" and put in blast gates before the lid to have a seperate line 6" line just for the tablesaw I should see less static loss, but would there be much improvement? Maybe my dust pick up underneath a flawed idea?

        Any suggestions on improving my setup appreciated.
        You've now plugged so many holes that you have no airflow into the extraction connection.

        You need several times the area of your 4 inch hose in openings for air flow into the saw cabinet.

        Regards, Rod.
        Work is the curse of the riding class.

        Comment


        • #19

          Re: Setup question.

          Re: Setup question.

          Thanks Rod. I think I'll take the tape off and see if there is an improvement. The saw still has lots of gaps under the table around, but maybe opening it right up is the answer...

          Don - regarding your comment of moving too much air/burning the motor.

          Is a 8-10' stretch of 6" flex hose gated straight to the saw from the impeller too little resistance? I am pretty sure I'm going to do that and bypass the cyclone lid/4" all together if there's no risk of damaging it. Seems the air movement would be significantly better and since my shop is in my house and the TS is responsible for most of mthe finer dust being produced I'm really trying to do the best I can on this.

          Comment


          • #20

            Re: Setup question.

            Re: Setup question.

            So many of us have trod the same path as so well covered here with the identical separator and hose arrangement (BTDT). The inherent weakest point is the porous table saw - any table saw. I have done the Darius back cover also but it gets in the way of operation. Stay with 4"hose. From my experience (until I eventually found a used Unisaw) the big or medium gulp under the saw is about as good as it gets. The back belt area of the table saw is what it is, the only improvement step might be an envelope box-type cover broadly enclosing the belt and motor and let that dust fall to be vacuumed intermittently.

            P.S. I use a Rockler http://www.rockler.com/dust-right-handle Quick disconnect handle on the hose making it a simply plug and move like a household vacuum sorta. I move my hose between the saw, surface planer (12") and 6" joiner. I found that to be easier, simpler, and less costly than any form of blast gates let alone any rigid piping if that should happen to be the case.

            Dust Right is a Rockler patent proprietary product but maybe this idea will help or you can order one ($15) and a female connector on each of the three machines come in packages of 2. Maybe use one of those borer town drop boxes etc., not having any idea where you are located. [I notice if I order from LV, Leigh, or others they ship from one of hose locations]

            I mentioned above stay with 4" hose because I think you mentioned air flow. Your/our DC, although I forget the numbers at the moment will handle two machines (cfm) and to my experience going to 6" is drawing too much for the DC to keep up with. This assumes of course that in your described basement situation, I make the brash assumption that only one machine is in operation at a time unles you are ambidextrous .

            Also, at risk of beging the apparent, I try to do as much of one operation at a time in bulk (sawing, planing, or edging) to reduce/miniumize number of hose swaps.

            PP.S, =
            I am pretty sure I'm going to do that and bypass the cyclone lid/4" all together
            NO, keep the cyclone lid, stay with 4", and tape the major dust escape from the saw, don't try to make it dust escape proof - you never will. Stop at that. You're overthinking.
            Last edited by Woodwreck; 11-16-2014, 09:03 PM.
            Start slow; wind down gracefuilly

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            • #21

              Re: Setup question.

              Re: Setup question.

              Why the suggestion for staying with 4"?

              Is it because the big gulp is a 4" connection? Or the extractor itself?

              The fitting that I put underneath has a 6" connection and although not exactly the same as the big gulp, since it doesn't cover the entire bottom, it is in a similar spot and seems to get most of what's in the cabinet area itself. I put a reducer to 4" because that's what goes in the cyclone lid, but if I bypass the cyclone I could use 6" all the way...

              I really appreciate everyone's suggestions and ideas.

              Seems like it will be tough to get an ideal solution until I move into a house with external shop, a Clearvue cyclone and a Hammer B3... Sunday afternoon dreaming...

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              • #22

                Re: Setup question.

                Re: Setup question.

                Originally posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
                You've now plugged so many holes that you have no airflow into the extraction connection.

                You need several times the area of your 4 inch hose in openings for air flow into the saw cabinet.

                Regards, Rod.
                I agree with Rod. You must provide make up air.

                Years ago a member here sealed up their cabinet saw so tight, that the finger hole in the zero clearance insert, acted as a vacuum clamp.

                Comment


                • #23

                  Re: Setup question.

                  Re: Setup question.

                  Why the suggestion for staying with 4"?
                  Plese see the post script above.
                  Start slow; wind down gracefuilly

                  Comment


                  • #24

                    Re: Setup question.

                    Re: Setup question.

                    Thanks for the explanation woodwreck.

                    6" being too much for the 1.5 HP motor is my concern. I've been moving my 4" machine to machine as is so that's not a problem. I don't have a locking system, but a plastic ring that friction fits and holds on pretty well, although it shot off of my planer one time and that made a bit of a mess...

                    Comment


                    • #25

                      Re: Setup question.

                      Re: Setup question.

                      Just visited Maddocks.

                      Maryann was super accommodating, explaining what they do and their products, gave me a full tour of their operation. Great to see manufacturing going strong here still. She said they're even shipping to clients in Mexico and China which is a nice reversal of the trend.

                      Anyway 18" x 26" filter with the merv 15 nano fibre filter. Open one end with an outer screen is going to be between about $90 and $120. She's doing the costing up and will send me detailed invoice later today. Told me since it's only one she will slip in into production quickly, about a week and a half for my filter to be made.

                      For $100 tough to go wrong on this one. Just hope I didn't miss anything on specifying what I needed...

                      Thanks again Don for pointing these guys out to me.

                      I'll post an update when I get it.

                      Comment


                      • #26

                        Re: Setup question.

                        Re: Setup question.

                        I have a DC similar to yours, in a 2HP. I have a Wynne filter on top, a barrel on the bottom and a Thien baffle in between the body of the DC and the filter. The baffle really does a great job of keeping the dust down and out of the filter. I have the same Rockler setup that Steve mentioned. You can buy it in Canada from Elite in Quebec. With it, I have connections on all my machines and one hose to slide onto them. With a 4" outlet from my DC, a 4" flex hose and 4" connectors on my machines, I get good results. As others have said, to get good dust collection from a table saw, especially a contractor model like yours and mine, you need a blade guard with a DC connection as well as something underneath. However, everything is a trade off.
                        Grant Wilkinson
                        Ottawa ON

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                        • #27

                          Re: Setup question.

                          Re: Setup question.

                          Hi Grant,

                          Thanks for the info. I've read a lot about the thien separator but I got the veritas lid basically for free so I'm going with it for now.

                          Which material do you have on the Wynne filter?

                          The over head collection on the TS is something I'd like to have eventually. Really don't want to invest much more into this saw though - Maybe I'll try cutting a hole in the blade guard and fashioning something into it... Hopefully the increased cfm I'm expecting with the new filter will help a bit too, if not I think I will bypass the cyclone lid for the TS to minimize static loss.

                          Anyway work in progress and getting better I think.

                          Comment


                          • #28

                            Re: Setup question.

                            Re: Setup question.

                            Alti: I have the .5 micron filter that Wynne sells for woodworkers. It makes a huge difference over the bag that I had on it. I used to have the LV lid, too. For me, it used up more space than I wanted to give it and it decreased the efficiency of my DC quite a bit. The Thien is integral to the body of the DC, so it adds no footprint and it does not take away from efficiency at all. It does a great job of getting the majority of the particles out of the air flow so that they don't get into the filter. The lightest stuff still gets into the filter, of course, but it takes only a few minutes to clean it now and then.

                            As for over-guard suction, I cut the guard that came with my Ridgid TS and glued a male plastic fitting into it. I run a 2"+ hose into it down into a Y fitting from the bottom of the saw. The Y is a 4" straight through and a 2"+ 45 degree off of it. It works very well at keeping things to a minimum. It's still a contractor saw, so there are lots of places for dust to get out, but it's much better than stock.
                            Grant Wilkinson
                            Ottawa ON

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