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  • More cyclone questions...

    Quick recap, I'm retrofitting a 2 Hp King two bagger dust collector.

    Using the existing impeller (11") and motor, I'm adding an Oneida Super Dust Deputy with a 35 Gallon bin and a Wynn 300 sq. ft. exhaust filter.

    Click image for larger version

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    I haven't been able to find a reference that speaks to the effect of different lengths of pipe between the bottom of the cyclone and the collection bin.

    Usually, the cyclone sits on the lid of the dust bin.

    If I mount my cyclone higher I can eliminate two 90's and 4' of straight 5" pipe in my main trunk.

    I would simply come straight out of the cyclone and over to my first drop.

    But the pipe from the cyclone to the collection bin would have to be 4'.

    Seems like a no brainer to me ?

    Or have I missed something ?

    Cheers, Don
    Last edited by Don Kondra; 08-10-2015, 03:31 AM.
    Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
    Product Photography
    My Acreage Bird Photographs
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  • #2

    Re: More cyclone questions...

    Re: More cyclone questions...

    I can eliminate two 90's and 4' of straight 5" pipe in my main trunk.
    Do it. Fewer 90's =more flow

    But the pipe from the cyclone to the collection bin would have to be 4'.
    This topic has been discussed in the Clear Vue forum. There is a consensus that a longer straight from the bottom of the cone to the bin is better. The package I bought came with a short piece of flex to connect to the bin. Mine is a good foot. You do have to be careful when generating coarse shavings or chips. The path into the waste bin is pretty much gravity assisted with a bit of cyclonic action. While the shavings are forced into the cyclone, they are not really forced out. Those of us with Clear Vue cyclones can see this, those without have to wait for an overflow.
    Because this zone is dead, you could use a 6" drop pipe. Remember, this pipe, the bin lid and all of the connections to the cone MUST be air tight. Any leaks compromise the cyclone.

    Don

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    • #3

      Re: More cyclone questions...

      Re: More cyclone questions...

      Thanks Don,

      Good to hear it has been "discussed"

      Perhaps it would be best to use clear hose for this, then I can see when it is too late, he, he...

      Air tight I can do !

      Cheers, Don
      Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
      Product Photography
      My Acreage Bird Photographs

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: More cyclone questions...

        Re: More cyclone questions...

        My Oneida came with a short section of clear pipe for the cone/bin junction so I can see when it's getting full.

        B
        Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

        http://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: More cyclone questions...

          Re: More cyclone questions...

          Thanks Brent,

          I ordered the 35 gallon Oneida fibre bin. Didn't want to fool with gaskets, etc. with yet another retrofit and it comes with a section of clear hose.

          I could have purchased a used, food grade drum locally for $20 and an hour drive but....

          Cheers, Don
          Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
          Product Photography
          My Acreage Bird Photographs

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: More cyclone questions...

            Am i the only one thinking that Don will be disappointed with the retrofit and will be looking to buy a properly sized cyclone in the near future? 2HP with 11" impeller going through a cyclone body and pleated filters?

            Remember that the impetus for Don wanting change was poor dust collection at his new edge sander. Putting a cyclone body between his tools and the dust collector (that was not powerful enough in the first place) may keep his filters cleaner longer but he will see a drop in performance at his edge sander from his previous setup. My two cents.

            Comment

            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: More cyclone questions...

              Re: More cyclone questions...

              I think you are right; I have a very similar set up - just 1 90* - to what don says he is going to do with the SDD, and while it does work, it is only about 60% as effective as I had hoped, and over all I regret it and feel like I wasted money.


              Originally posted by Peter in Maple Ridge View Post
              Am i the only one thinking that Don will be disappointed with the retrofit and will be looking to buy a properly sized cyclone in the near future? 2HP with 11" impeller going through a cyclone body and pleated filters?

              Remember that the impetus for Don wanting change was poor dust collection at his new edge sander. Putting a cyclone body between his tools and the dust collector (that was not powerful enough in the first place) may keep his filters cleaner longer but he will see a drop in performance at his edge sander from his previous setup. My two cents.

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: More cyclone questions...

                Re: More cyclone questions...

                Originally posted by Peter in Maple Ridge View Post
                Am i the only one thinking that Don will be disappointed with the retrofit and will be looking to buy a properly sized cyclone in the near future? 2HP with 11" impeller going through a cyclone body and pleated filters?

                Remember that the impetus for Don wanting change was poor dust collection at his new edge sander. Putting a cyclone body between his tools and the dust collector (that was not powerful enough in the first place) may keep his filters cleaner longer but he will see a drop in performance at his edge sander from his previous setup. My two cents.
                Originally posted by callee View Post
                I think you are right; I have a very similar set up - just 1 90* - to what don says he is going to do with the SDD, and while it does work, it is only about 60% as effective as I had hoped, and over all I regret it and feel like I wasted money.
                Good for you guys, glad you's spoke up

                I also have some misgivings but...

                As with any design, things have evolved and the benefits of a retrofit that I never even thought of have emerged !

                For instance, I now know more than I ever wanted to about static pressure. And likely still not enough..

                At first, I didn't want to run pipes all over the darn place.

                Well, turns out if I did a normal install the hose would exit the cyclone at roughly 4 feet high right by my spray booth door. Kind of in the way, eh ?

                At least with my existing set up the hose is almost on the ground. Still trip on it occasionally, he, he..

                So that lead to installing the impeller at the top of my spray booth wall. Then I can run a 10' x 5" trunk straight to the middle of my cluster of jointer/planer/bandsaw.

                No more hose to trip over.

                For reference, this is my set up now. The thickness planer is to the left of the morticer.

                Click image for larger version

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                The new location of the impeller, etc. is the top/front of my spray booth. I regain the floor space when my collector used to sit and if I put the bin on a platform/shelf I still can pile "stuff" below it..

                Click image for larger version

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                I was in the area of a dust collector parts supplier and stopped to check on prices. Came home with this...

                Forgot to get a 5" to 5" connector and some sheet metal screws, sigh...

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                This is my mounting bracket for the impeller/motor.

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                A bit of brevity. The salesman suggested that two adjustable 45 - 90 connectors was much less expensive than a single piece heavier gauge gradual 90-degree piece.

                I swear I have a touch of dyslexia, these darn things are like a Chinese puzzle

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                Anywho, back on track....

                I Really did not like having to empty a bag full of shavings and then wrestle that darn clamp back on. Fixed.

                The 35-gallon container is roughly 1/3 less in volume. More trips but lighter, me like.

                I was running 20' of 4" hose. Now I will have a main trunk of spiral 5" x ~ 14' with one 90 degree at the drop. Still to be decided is whether to use ~ 5' of 4" or 5" to get to the main ports.

                That has to be an improvement right there ?

                Now consider when I originally installed a canister filter I noticed a drop in CFM.

                The 300 sq. ft. Wynn filter has got to be better at not restricting the exhaust air flow ?

                And I'm hoping will stay much cleaner longer that what I now have.

                Realistically, I would be happy if this new system works as well as my old one did on day one, without the puff of dust at start up

                As to the problem child, the edge sander. I would have no problem with simply making a larger, maybe stand alone hood for it.

                We shall see, if I'm Really lucky the cyclone, dust bin and filter will arrive before the weekend, fingers crossed

                And a little treat, a remote control. Because I've been such a good boy (big grin).

                Thanks so much everyone for the comments/suggestions.

                Don't be shy, I can take it. Keep them coming..

                Cheers, Don
                Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
                Product Photography
                My Acreage Bird Photographs

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: More cyclone questions...

                  Re: More cyclone questions...

                  Originally posted by callee View Post
                  I think you are right; I have a very similar set up - just 1 90* - to what don says he is going to do with the SDD, and while it does work, it is only about 60% as effective as I had hoped, and over all I regret it and feel like I wasted money.
                  Another senior moment here Ryan,

                  Have you posted pictures/details of your set up ?

                  Can't remember, sigh...

                  Cheers, Don
                  Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
                  Product Photography
                  My Acreage Bird Photographs

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: More cyclone questions...

                    Re: More cyclone questions...

                    Don't feel bad Don: I can't remember either! I'll see about getting a shot today.


                    Originally posted by Don Kondra View Post
                    Another senior moment here Ryan,

                    Have you posted pictures/details of your set up ?

                    Can't remember, sigh...

                    Cheers, Don

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: More cyclone questions...

                      Re: More cyclone questions...

                      Originally posted by callee View Post
                      Don't feel bad Don: I can't remember either! I'll see about getting a shot today.
                      What ?

                      Still cleaning up before taking a picture ?

                      Cheers, Don
                      Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
                      Product Photography
                      My Acreage Bird Photographs

                      Comment

                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: More cyclone questions...

                        Re: More cyclone questions...

                        Don,

                        I think you're on the right track by going to a central dust collector, but I believe your new arrangement will still fall short of your needs. Here's why:

                        - your motor and impeller sounds as though they won't be able to generate the required CFM - at the static pressure your ductwork presents - to keep the dust and chips moving through the ductwork. Sanders are challenging dust generators, so are best physically located as close as possible to the DC. If you find your system is capable of satisfying every machine other than the sander, a free-standing, dedicated single stage DC which you'd roll out whenever you're running that machine, may be a less expensive option. But, there's nothing better than having a DC capable of satisfying 120% of your anticipated maximum requirement. The way things now stand, it appears you're not there.

                        - your relatively small 5" main trunk and 4" secondary runs introduce significant static pressure as compared to, say 6" or 7". If you read up on Pentz, you'll know why. Most full-time one-man shops are running a 7" main trunk, going down to 6" secondary lines and 5" gates and flex hoses for the final 8' (max) connection to the tool. I think that given the information about your shop which you've provided, you may have set yourself up for disappointment by your ductwork's relatively small size.

                        On the plus side, I agree with your move to reducing the tripping hazard, regaining floor space, getting a more effective, safer filter, having a remote and selecting a manageable drum size (we're all getting older - hopefully a trend which continues for a long time, right?!).

                        Good luck with improving the efficiency and safety of your shop. It's an investment everyone in business - or otherwise - should ideally be making.
                        All the best,

                        Marty

                        - Instagram: @apexwoodworks
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                        Secretary of Kingston Wood Artisans Inc. https://kwoodartca.wordpress.com/

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                        • #13

                          Re: More cyclone questions...

                          Re: More cyclone questions...

                          I just happened to be on Pentz's website yesterday and wanted to add a few things I read on there that may be helpful. I'll assume that your motor/fan combo will work - here's what won't:

                          1) The system and all fittings need to be air tight. Any joints need to be sealed with a joint sealant or silicone to avoid air leaks. A small leak will be a large loss in efficiency;
                          2) A 5" main will cause you nothing but grief along with those 90's. 90 degree elbows should be avoided at all costs - use 45's and Y's whenever possible. If you do use a 90, use a wide radius one, not a short radius like you have. As others have pointed out, 6-7" mains is what you need to have a shot of your setup working;
                          3) You make no mention of blast gates (unless I've missed it);
                          4) Like others have pointed out, you'll regret long lengths of 4" hose - use larger hose and only reduce at the machine. Your sander could stand some of the large dust collection hoods available at Busy Bee, Elite, etc. with a short length of 4" or 5" and the rest 6".
                          5) I'd suggest wrapping the remote in foam or rubber material to avoid permanent damage when you end up throwing it out of frustration.

                          As a side note - that SDD will do nothing to aid in your quest other than cause frustration. Andrew Pitts has a good quick and dirty overview of his system. You might get a few tips.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: More cyclone questions...

                            Re: More cyclone questions...

                            Sorry, went on vacation! Will get a pic when I get back in two weeks.

                            Originally posted by Don Kondra View Post
                            What ?

                            Still cleaning up before taking a picture ?

                            Cheers, Don

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: More cyclone questions...

                              Re: More cyclone questions...

                              Originally posted by MartyFromKingston View Post
                              Don,

                              I think you're on the right track by going to a central dust collector, but I believe your new arrangement will still fall short of your needs. Here's why:

                              - your motor and impeller sounds as though they won't be able to generate the required CFM - at the static pressure your ductwork presents - to keep the dust and chips moving through the ductwork. Sanders are challenging dust generators, so are best physically located as close as possible to the DC. If you find your system is capable of satisfying every machine other than the sander, a free-standing, dedicated single stage DC which you'd roll out whenever you're running that machine, may be a less expensive option. But, there's nothing better than having a DC capable of satisfying 120% of your anticipated maximum requirement. The way things now stand, it appears you're not there.

                              - your relatively small 5" main trunk and 4" secondary runs introduce significant static pressure as compared to, say 6" or 7". If you read up on Pentz, you'll know why. Most full-time one-man shops are running a 7" main trunk, going down to 6" secondary lines and 5" gates and flex hoses for the final 8' (max) connection to the tool. I think that given the information about your shop which you've provided, you may have set yourself up for disappointment by your ductwork's relatively small size.
                              Thanks Mary for taking the time to share your thoughts !

                              My "plan", as of today, is to mount the impeller high enough that I can come straight out of the cyclone with a 5" main for ~ 8', then a 45/one foot of straight/another 45/one foot of straight. Connected to that will be ~ 5' of 5" flex which will allow me to reach the majority of my tools, one at a time. No blast gates, no 4", sigh... The 4" is so easy to move around

                              Using this chart, I chose a target of 650 CFM.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Then punching in the numbers on Bill's chart, I get a static pressure of 5.09"

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                              Using a performance chart of a 1 1/2 Hp Hepa filter cyclone dust collector, it appears I'm in the ball park. (Couldn't find a performance chart on a two bagger)

                              Click image for larger version

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                              On the plus side, I agree with your move to reducing the tripping hazard, regaining floor space, getting a more effective, safer filter, having a remote and selecting a manageable drum size (we're all getting older - hopefully a trend which continues for a long time, right?!).
                              Yes

                              Odd thing, after all the research, etc. these benefits out weigh an increase in CFM and I'm optimistic I will see at least the CFM I was getting from new.

                              Originally posted by Bubba Gump View Post
                              I just happened to be on Pentz's website yesterday and wanted to add a few things I read on there that may be helpful. I'll assume that your motor/fan combo will work - here's what won't:

                              1) The system and all fittings need to be air tight. Any joints need to be sealed with a joint sealant or silicone to avoid air leaks. A small leak will be a large loss in efficiency;
                              2) A 5" main will cause you nothing but grief along with those 90's. 90 degree elbows should be avoided at all costs - use 45's and Y's whenever possible. If you do use a 90, use a wide radius one, not a short radius like you have. As others have pointed out, 6-7" mains is what you need to have a shot of your setup working;
                              3) You make no mention of blast gates (unless I've missed it);
                              4) Like others have pointed out, you'll regret long lengths of 4" hose - use larger hose and only reduce at the machine. Your sander could stand some of the large dust collection hoods available at Busy Bee, Elite, etc. with a short length of 4" or 5" and the rest 6".
                              5) I'd suggest wrapping the remote in foam or rubber material to avoid permanent damage when you end up throwing it out of frustration.

                              As a side note - that SDD will do nothing to aid in your quest other than cause frustration. Andrew Pitts has a good quick and dirty overview of his system. You might get a few tips.
                              Thank you.

                              See my reply above.

                              The inlet on the Super Dust Deputy is 5", I see no benefit to increasing that to 6" for such a small run.

                              At this point, I am expecting to make a larger hood for my edge sander.

                              Cheers, Don
                              Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
                              Product Photography
                              My Acreage Bird Photographs

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