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  • Dust Collector

    This weekend is the Wood show in Winnipeg and I'll be picking up a dust collector. It will either be the 1.5 hp King 3105 or the 1.5 hp Delta 50-760. They are both the same price though the Delta does come with a free Porter Cable 1/4 sheet sander. My question is what size of hose should I buy 4" or 5"? Currently my table saw has a 4" port but if 5" is better I can always put a reducer at the saw's connection. I will be wheeling it around the shop for the time being.

  • #2

    Re: Dust Collector

    dust collection mathematics

    Originally posted by Henry from Winnipeg
    This weekend is the Wood show in Winnipeg and I'll be picking up a dust collector. It will either be the 1.5 hp King 3105 or the 1.5 hp Delta 50-760. They are both the same price though the Delta does come with a free Porter Cable 1/4 sheet sander. My question is what size of hose should I buy 4" or 5"? Currently my table saw has a 4" port but if 5" is better I can always put a reducer at the saw's connection. I will be wheeling it around the shop for the time being.
    deciding what to install can be a complicated issue. depending on the air movement, 5" might drop the airspeed too low and chips would get stuck, depending on the run, etc.

    check out this site, it's big but has a lot of information that might help:

    http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm

    btw, for me, i just ran 4" everywhere for now. it seems to work pretty well, and i didn't really do too much calculating. BUT, bigger isn't always better, it all depends on the relationship between air volume and velocity.

    hope this helps,

    CraigL

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    • #3

      Re: Dust Collector

      I bought that Delta this past year, and I quite like it. Knowledgable people have commented that the filter bag is higher quality than most consumer dust collectors.

      It's a bit odd that it has dual 4" ports or else a single 5" port. Two 4" ports are much closer in size to a 6" port. Weird. Anyways, if you run it with just a single 4" hose (or even a 5" hose), you will likely not get the maximum airflow of which it is capable.

      I run it with dual 4" flex hoses, about 12' long each. According to the calculations on Bill's site, this should give fast enough airspeed as well as more than 800CFM total airflow.

      For a table saw, the ideal scenario is a 5" port on the base and a 3" port on the blade guard. I currently run one hose to the base, and jury-rig something to hold the other hose on top of the saw near the blade. Between the two hoses very little dust escapes. Eventually I plan on making a ported blade guard.

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Dust Collector

        Hi Henry,

        I am not familiar with the two DC's in question - I have a 2hp Jet, but I'll ramble for a bit anyway.

        Read Bill's site as others have said. It states very strongly that if one is not going to go for a cyclone that they should at least get a DC with a cannister, rather than a bag. Also, I have found that having an air cleaner has made a big diference to me in clearing out the air in my shop and is a necessary compliment to my DC, you can make one in an evening with furnace filters and a fan (I used an attic fan).

        My DC also has a 5 inch outlet or two 4's. It is general wisdom to run as big a diameter as close to your machine as possible. I have never heard of any situation where running smaller ducting was an advantage, but I have experiance with only one DC in one shop.

        take care,

        Matt
        SPCHT

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Dust Collector

          Matt:

          Do you mind my asking what you paid for your 2HP Jet DC? I was at an auction last weekend and one went for $375. It looked to be in good shape but it seemed to me that the price was too close to retail to be a good deal. But I don't know much about the Jet equipment so maybe it was.

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Dust Collector

            I have the 50-760 Delta. Works great with over 50' of 4" duct.....
            Saw it recently in a buyers and it was ranked#1. It was a US magazine so the King was not included....
            I am sure the King is well built, but if the price was the same + the added value of the sander ($40 or $50 value i bet) I would think your choice would be pretty clear....
            I believe the Delta will include about 6' of 4" flex hose in the box.....

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Dust Collector

              Henry, did you consider the Busy Bee 2 HP DC that they have on sale right now for $245.00. I too am in the market for a DC and, quite frankly, I'm getting sick of doing research. I even went to the library and dug out the March / April issue of Fine Woodworking to read their article. It was interesting that the Delta didn't rate very high. I've looked at the King 3105, the Delta 50-760 and a GI 1.5 HP unit. Prices ranged from $349 - $399. Since it's not a very complex machine and it does have a three year warranty and since Busy Bee is only 5 minutes away from me I just couldn't justify the added cost of the other units. That could be a mistake but after all the research I've done it's the best decision for me at this time. However, having said that, I'm still going to the Woodstock wood show next Friday to see if there are any good deals.

              PS - The only drawback to the Busy Bee unit is it is only wired for 220.
              Last edited by Barry in London; 09-22-2006, 10:54 AM.
              Regards

              Barry


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              • #8

                Re: Dust Collector

                Originally posted by matt in golden
                Read Bill's site as others have said. It states very strongly that if one is not going to go for a cyclone that they should at least get a DC with a cannister, rather than a bag.

                Actually, Bill has stepped back from the cannister-instead-of-bag idea, mainly due to the fact that the canister gets damaged and/or clogged up without a cyclone in front of it. From his site, "These units need a fine screen in addition to their more coarse support screen to block these hits and much finer 0.5-micron filters before they would get my blessings."

                Basically, Bill's recommendations are as follows (from best to worst):

                1) Use a cyclone with really fine cartridge filters
                2) Use a standard bag filter collector placed outside so the dust doesn't get back into the shop.
                3) Enclose your standard bag filter collector in an airtight box and vent the box through some really fine cartridge filters. This lets the bags collect the big stuff, while the cartridges protect your lungs.
                4) Convert your bag filter to a cartridge filter.

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Dust Collector

                  Hey Chris,

                  Your right, I reread it last night and saw that the cannister was indeed down on the list.

                  Given the context of the original post, though, I think it still stands as something to check out.

                  1.) I figure that Henry had already ruled out a cyclone and was looking at budget cleaners.

                  2.) Henry said he would be moving it from one machine to another, so I didn't think outside was an option.

                  3.) As I understand it by enclosing the DC in a box he would then still be looking at purchasing a cartridge style filter to run outside the box, but it does sound like a great idea. I understand then that you would need to use a DC with 6" outlet and at least 1200cfm true airflow - so he would need to then consider getting a bigger DC, especially if he wants it hooked up to ducting.

                  I agree with you, though, and I'm going to convert my 2hp DC in the next few months untill I have the time to do a cyclone. Maybe the message then is to consider looking at getting a bigger DC that can be converted at a later date.

                  take care,

                  Matt
                  SPCHT

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Dust Collector

                    Busy Bee is off my list simply because there isn't one in Winnipeg and I like to look and touch before buying. I'm also conserned that if I had a problem with it during the warrenty period it would be expensive to ship it back to get fixed. If it weren't for that I would have considered it as well as the 8" jointer which looks like a really good price right now.

                    Since I don't have a jointer or planer I'm thinking I'll just move it around to where I need it. In the future when I get a jointer and a planer I'll hook up a garbage can and a cyclone lid to catch all the big chips before it gets to the the dust collector.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Dust Collector

                      Ok, I don't have a dust collection system yet and have been thinking of
                      buying one. So far I used to connect a shopvac to each tool I wanted to use
                      plus a portable air cleaner running near where I generated dust.

                      After reading through several pages of Bills' cyclone dust collector research I should admit I'm scared off: 1) that I didn't have a good dust collection so far and 2) (more importantly) it seems anything not hugely expensive is not going to do any good. I got the impression that these typical (say 1.5HP) dust collectors (with an "advertised" 1 micron filter bag) and 4" hose connections aren't really protecting us. I am just a hobbyist (this is not my real work) but I don't want to create a health problem for myself or my family 20 years down the road. Is it really just a false sense of security to have such a dust collector connected to one machine at a time (plus a portable air cleaner running all the time I'm in a shop)?

                      Those of you who are older than me (I just turned 30 a few days ago!) and have been in this business, please share your thought.

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Dust Collector

                        Originally posted by Henry from Winnipeg
                        In the future when I get a jointer and a planer I'll hook up a garbage can and a cyclone lid to catch all the big chips before it gets to the the dust collector.
                        I don't yet have either of those tools either, but from what I've heard any decent dust collector will have enough airflow to suck most of the chips out of one of those garbage cans when using the typical cyclone lids. You need a much slower exit velocity to ensure that the chips stay in the can. One suggestion I saw was to use a section of very large pipe (8-10") coming off the lid, then narrowing it back down on the way to the collector intake.


                        Originally posted by mreza
                        After reading through several pages of Bills' cyclone dust collector research I should admit I'm scared off: 1) that I didn't have a good dust collection so far and 2) (more importantly) it seems anything not hugely expensive is not going to do any good. I got the impression that these typical (say 1.5HP) dust collectors (with an "advertised" 1 micron filter bag) and 4" hose connections aren't really protecting us. .... Is it really just a false sense of security to have such a dust collector connected to one machine at a time (plus a portable air cleaner running all the time I'm in a shop)?
                        Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a professional woodworker, but I have read and considered basically all of Bill's site, as well as various other websites, books, and articles.

                        Bill's story is pretty much worst-case, but it's certainly something to consider.

                        Fine Woodworking #183 did a review of smaller dust collectors. The results of that test are visible at:

                        http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...ingDCTests.jpg

                        Based on those results, there are only about three small collectors that will get you enough airflow at the tool to get all the fine dust, and the Delta 50-760 is noticeably better than the other two options. However, even it can only give a usable amount of airflow up to about 4.5" of static pressure. This is equivalent to having 16' of 4" flex hose--and if your filters are dirty, this goes down. (However if you run a single 5" line or dual 4" lines then you're much better off.)

                        Also, these small collectors are only safe if you put them outside and don't let the air circulate back in. This can work perfectly well in the summer, although a basement shop would make this tricky.

                        Assuming that you want to work in the winter and not lose all your nicely warmed air, one thing to consider would be a combination of the dust collector (to keep the shop from getting dusty) and then a respirator (possibly powered) worn the entire time you're in the shop to protect your lungs.

                        Finally, if you're good with your hands you *can* build a cyclone for a reasonable price using sheet metal. You'll still need to buy the motor, impeller, and filters, but that would add up to not much more than the price of a good small collector and would give you much better dust collection. The downside is that it can take a lot of time to finish.

                        Chris

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Dust Collector

                          Dale in Calgary

                          A little over a year ago I purchased a PowerSonic from Black Forest in Calgary. It is a 2 HP, can be wired fro 220 or 110 (I run mine on 110). I pulls at 1500 cfm and has the standard 5" port that tees off into 2 4" ports. All my lines are 4" and then reduce down at the various tools.

                          One thing I did recently was invert the Dust Collector. In most cases it sits on the floor and all the collector lines run overhead. If you can follow this, the dust is lifted from the various tools up to the overhead lines and pulled towards the dust collector where it drops to the impeller and is blown into the bag area and then it drops into the lower bag. By inverting the dust collector the impeller is up near the ceiling and connects directly to the overhehad 4" collector pipes, thus eliminating about 6 - 8 feet of pipe. When I inverted the dust collector it also requires that you also invert the cone inside the dust collector that drops the dust into the lower bag. Oh yes, and those 2 4" ports on your dust collector, here's a little hint: every once in a while, unplug your dust collector and take the cover off the unused 4" port, reach up in there and remove the chips and sticks on the screen over the 5" inlet in to the impeller. By the way the price on the PowerSonic was $319.

                          I forgot to mention that my dust collctor now hangs from the ceiling of my workshop. It is bolted to a base of 3/4" plywood that hangs from 4 healthy coil springs. Sure makes it nice to clean the floor after emptying the dust bag, as there is nothin on the floor and the dust bag is about 6" above the floor. If I knew how to post a picture I would, but this will have to do for now.
                          Last edited by Dale Fleury; 09-24-2006, 10:36 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Dust Collector

                            Delta 1.5HP or Canwood Prem 2HP?

                            I'm getting sick of doing research on these DC's too. I've even contacted Bill Pentz. The problem is I don't want to sepnd $1000 and yet I want to get the best thing I can (after all this is for my health and my family's).

                            My list now has only a few items. Delta 1.5HP (which has good ratings)
                            and the other is Pioneer 2HP Prem DC (PNR 12-475, this is $600 at House of Tools but I think I can get it for about $385). Comparing it to Delta:

                            Pioneer: 1600 CFM, 12" impeller, 12" static pressure, one 6" or two 4" ports.

                            Delta: 1200 CFM, 11.5" impeller, 8" static pressuer, one 5" or two 4" ports

                            Which one would you recommend? if they're about the same price should I go with Pioneer with the hope that it will deliver at least 1000CFM? Anybody who has tried this?


                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Dust Collector

                              Mreza,

                              In the next month I'll be re-hooking up my 2hp DC - I believe it has a 12 inch impeller and has been very good in my last shop with a very short run. I've decided to build it into a cabinet and vent it to the outside in the fall/summer/spring and then leave the cabinet open and close the vent in the winter and just accept what level of performance my one micron bags can give. I'll also be hooking it up with a 6" main line that will be about 10 feet from my table saw.

                              Who knows which one is better? If you are wheeling it from machine to machine or have a short run then either would do I'd think. But... it seems that a 6" outlet, and a bigger impeller are things that would contribute to more suction if you needed it to hook up to ducting... Without a head to head test it is all speculation, so I'd just go with the specifications.

                              good luck,

                              Matt
                              SPCHT

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