Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

    Hi guys, Alan here, from Hamilton Ontario

    I plan on building a new garage in my backyard. Of course I have many question (and of course I've used the search feature and read many (many) forum threads) I'm still having some issues that some of you may be able to give me some advice on

    This is a question regarding the Electric on the garage. I will start a different thread for my gas question..


    I'll try and be as detailed as possible (but I'm sure I'll still miss something)
    I am going to build my new shop\garage in the back corner of my property behind the house. The property is aprox 50x100 and house is about 1250 sqft. I have a large powered shed at 10x14 and plan on building the shop at aprox 28x28 with the new shop panel being aprox 50-60 ft from the panel in the house.

    Power would come off the new household panel along the inside of the outside wall or through the floor joist in basement to back of house, then be sent out the back wall to the garage through a trench to a new panel in shop.
    I plan on digging the trench deep as I am also going to use this trench for cold water to garage and 2" return drain back from the garage and maybe drainage to household\city weeping?? I will also use this for Cable\phone\intercom\alarm etc...(and maybe gas, but that's another issue)

    I need electrical advice. I have a 100 amp panel in my house but only a 60 amp service. (meter is still inside house) I just had an electrician over to look at upgrading my service. I told him I want 100 amp service run out to the new freestanding garage to be built and needed the household power to be improved to accept ALL future loads
    His idea was to change the service from 60 amps to 100 amps in the house and leave the current 100 amp panel in place. (it was an upgrade with breakers) then add a smaller panel beside the 100 amp panel to accept some more breakers for my future household needs and then have it inspected by the electrical inspector.

    After inspection he was going to add 3 or 4 30 amp breakers to the bottom of my original panel be used to power the garage. He would also re-arrange some breakers on the original panel to clear up space at the bottom of the panel for those breakers for the 100 amp service to be sent to garage.
    I'm confused as to weather this is the correct way or not. If he has 100 amp service connected to my house. Is it really feasible to run my whole house AND pull 90-100 from it to run the garage?? OR do I really need a 200 amp panel in the house??

    He says that would be the cheapest way to do it but although money is always an issue, what is best way? I would have thought that running 200 amp service to the house (even though it is a smaller, older house) and then dedicating 100 amps to the garage would be the way..(although expensive)

    Is he trying to save me money but cutting corners or is it all about the amperage calculations?

    If I buy a 200 amp panel, I can use the old 100 amp panel in the garage.

    would I be robbing the house by doing it his way or is is correct?

    I plan on working alone in the shop and usually only on weekends and evening etc. but I do plan on having a complete shop eventually. That means a cabinetmakers tablesaw at 3hp at 220 volt a dust collector at 1-3hp 220 volt and maybe the bandsaw might get 220volt and the future Lathe at 220 volt. I'll also have a plug for a future welder at 220volt as well as a plug outside the garage for myRV travel trailer at 220 volts (50 amps) but not usually drawing much power. maybe some plugs for 200 volt heat, but I've not locked in my heating options.... The rest will most likely be 110 volt outlets ALL around the garage, as well as 2 in the ceiling for outlets, 2 ceiling fans, 2 ceiling mounted dust filters and a garage door opener. and power in the attic space.

    On an average day, lights will be on. tablesaw or lathe etc.. ceiling mounted dust filters will occasionally be on. two ceiling fans will occasionally be on. Radio or TV. Batteries charging and whatever tools I'm working on. maybe the compressor will cycle on occasionally and I will have limited power being used in the travel trailer at times 15/30/50amp and dust collector and or shop vac

    extra power will go under or over counters as well as good lighting in ceiling and above in the attic. as well as outside security lights and outlets etc....

    Like I said, I'll normally be working alone and therefore wont be using all power at all times, but I DO plan on having everything set in place and power placed out in the most convenient places (i.e. lots of outlets..)

    I can run some types of power together on the same breaker because I wont be welding with the tablesaw on etc.... But I may have the RV trailer plugged in running 30-50 amps but not really drawing any power (wont be using the ac or anything)




    One of you guys out there said "Ditch ALL of the 15 amp circuits and substitute 20 amp/12 gauge wiring. Use proper 15/20 amp receptacles. You will NEVER regret this and the cost is minimal during rough in."

    Does anybody disagree????


    any idea what a fair quote might look like for power?? broken down into two phases. Phase one would be household service upgrade. Phase two would be 6 months later with the running of power to the garage and installing new panel and wiring. I should be able to do much of the shop wiring myself with only electrical help for the important connections....I can also run most of the in floor conduit myself to various locations to save pulling lots of wire through lots of wood joists..

    a ballpark number is all I'm asking, not a quote. Just wondering what I need to budget for all this

    Thanks in advance for any help you give

    Alan from Hamilton
    Last edited by aldeon; 03-03-2009, 06:01 PM.
    Alan from Hamilton Ontario

  • #2

    Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

    Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

    Hi Alan

    This electrician sounds shadey, it doesn't make any sense to run that many circuits 4 or 5 30A out to the garage. Also doing it after the inspection isn't legal. If you really want 100A in the house and the garage, one way to do it is to have a 200A meter base installed that will have lugs to feed 2 100A panels from one meter, yes there is such a thing. You would have to make sure that the conduit from the meter to the house panel is 1 1/4" and #3 wire is run also would be the same to the garage, with the garage panel being grounded to a ground plate. So esentially you have to seperate 100A services from one 200A meter.

    You would be wise to contact a reputable electrical contractor in your area and one that is on the ACP program as they have to maintain a certain level of quality to be on this progam. This way the job should be done correctly and it is up to the contractor to worry about the permit. Don't let someone tell you to take out the permit and then they will do the work. That is not legal for someone to do the work on the side. Other the homeowner can pull a permit and do his own work or it has to be an electrical contractor that pulls the permit and they do the work.
    If you want me to make it i need this new tool first

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

      Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

      Originally posted by Todd View Post
      Hi Alan

      This electrician sounds shadey, it doesn't make any sense to run that many circuits 4 or 5 30A out to the garage.

      I think he said 3 or 4 but that's why I'm asking. I'm the one who told him that I wanted 100 amps to the garage so that was his solution. not sure if it was a good one just yet.

      Also doing it after the inspection isn't legal.

      maybe I said it wrong. He planned on getting the house portion inspected right away. And I could pay him and get that part out of the way first. I wont be able to start wiring the garage for another 6 months. He was going to give me the 100 amps for the house and an extra small panel for some extra fuses and get it inspected. THEN after he would be able to send power to the garage when it's ready. I assume he has to get an inspection for the garage so I don't think he'll get away with anything. This was just his solution. right or wrong, i'm not sure.

      If you really want 100A in the house and the garage, one way to do it is to have a 200A meter base installed that will have lugs to feed 2 100A panels from one meter, yes there is such a thing. You would have to make sure that the conduit from the meter to the house panel is 1 1/4" and #3 wire is run also would be the same to the garage, with the garage panel being grounded to a ground plate. So esentially you have to seperate 100A services from one 200A meter.

      That makes sense to me. In the long run, I may not need all that power. I currently run my whole house on 60 amps and some are telling me I only will ever need another 60amps in the shop, so I'm not sure what my best choice is. I just want to have enough so I don't have to kick myself for not going a bit over, when I had the chance

      You would be wise to contact a reputable electrical contractor in your area and one that is on the ACP program as they have to maintain a certain level of quality to be on this progam. This way the job should be done correctly and it is up to the contractor to worry about the permit. Don't let someone tell you to take out the permit and then they will do the work. That is not legal for someone to do the work on the side. Other the homeowner can pull a permit and do his own work or it has to be an electrical contractor that pulls the permit and they do the work.
      Not to worry. this guy said he'll pull a permit and get the inspector in to check his work, I'm just not sure if his solution was correct or not. Once he's done, it's too late to ask for other options.

      I can still also get other quotes, as I still have other hurdles to solve before the garage is started.


      Thanks for the reply
      Last edited by aldeon; 03-03-2009, 08:45 PM.
      Alan from Hamilton Ontario

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

        Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

        I have a 100 A Main and run a 60A breaker on it to a 100A panel for my shop in which the main was changed for 60A breaker. I thought I needed to go to 200A main to accomodate my shop and other future plans, but as my electrician explained to me, you can't run all your shop stuff at once, nor will all things in your house can/would be on at the same time either. Thus negatting the need for the Main upgrade. Keep in mind possibly, that I'm on gas for clothes dryer, water tank, and hopefully soon stove top. If you are getting inspected, the electrician won't/shouldn't be playing games.
        Kevin

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

          Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

          Originally posted by Lost in the Woods View Post
          I have a 100 A Main and run a 60A breaker on it to a 100A panel for my shop in which the main was changed for 60A breaker. I thought I needed to go to 200A main to accomodate my shop and other future plans, but as my electrician explained to me, you can't run all your shop stuff at once, nor will all things in your house can/would be on at the same time either. Thus negatting the need for the Main upgrade. Keep in mind possibly, that I'm on gas for clothes dryer, water tank, and hopefully soon stove top. If you are getting inspected, the electrician won't/shouldn't be playing games.

          Yeah, I don't think he's playing games. I think he may be trying to think of the most economical way to to the job. I just want to make sure I agree to what's best for my future needs, even if it cost me more now.

          I may ask to have the best wire installed in the trunk line from the pole to the house, to ensure I wont have to change that if I need more. but I'll be listening for more answers before choosing

          thanks

          thanks
          Alan from Hamilton Ontario

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

            Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

            Ok, you can also upgrade the service to 100A and install a Square D panel like a 32/64 cct pnl that will give you plenty of room with out a sub panel in the house. Then take the panel that is in the house and use it in the garage feing fed from a 60A breaker.
            If you want me to make it i need this new tool first

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

              Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

              You don't need a whole whack of power in the shop. I have 60 amps and it's way more then I'll likely ever use. That of coarse changes if you go with electric heat.
              I'm not an electrician but most of what your electrician suggested sounded good to me. I think the sub panel he's putting in is more or less just to free up some space so you can supply the shop and still have room for upgrades in the house.
              Having a bunch of 20 amp outlets in the shop is nice but I think doing all of them is overkill. Particularly if you're putting a lot in. I'm running everything off 15 amp breakers at this point and the only problem I have is the lathe has to be on a dedicated circuit. That will eventually get changed to 220 volt so I'm not worried about it at this point.

              If you have two 30 amp breakers feeding the shop from the main panel and you run too many things in the shop at once you might trip those breakers. More likely you will trip a shop breaker if you're overloading a particular circuit.

              Just because you run two 30 amp lines to the shop doesn't mean you are limited to four 15 amp circuits. It means you are limited to pulling 60 amps total when everything is running. Add up all the breakers you have in your panel now and you'll probably find you are well above the 60amp supply you have. That's OK.

              A lot of stuff can be run off one 15 amp circuit. Lights, radio, clock,battery charger and maybe a plug or two for other small stuff. You could even run a corded drill on the same circuit without worry unless you really go wild with the lighting.

              Unless you have a monster saw and DC you could probably run them both off the same 220 V 20 A circuit at the same time without issue. Or, two 110V 20 A circuits. Either way thats two breakers for the two big draws in the shop. A few more circuits will cover everything else.

              No, you can't run the TS, DC, welder, jointer and air conditioner all at the same time but why would you?

              Again, I'm not an electrician so take it for what it's worth.
              J.P. Rap Mount Hope Ont.
              Carpe Ductum (Seize The Tape)


              "In this world, you must be oh so smart, or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. Elwood P. Dowd

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                I'd do it exactly as Todd has described. The only other thing I'd consider is whether you may have dreams of a hot tub in the future.

                If it were me pricing it I'd price it as $1500 to $2000 for the 100A service upgrade, $800 for the garage service. I wouldn't allow you to do part of the work on my permit, it would be all or nothing. If you wanted to pull a separate permit so you could wire the shop that would be fine.
                Last edited by Mike in London; 03-03-2009, 11:06 PM.
                Mike

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                  Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                  Originally posted by Mike in London View Post
                  I'd do it exactly as Todd has described. The only other thing I'd consider is whether you may have dreams of a hot tub in the future.

                  I say no now, but after the backyard is finished and looking all Purdy-like, I may rethink the idea...

                  I'll be keeping my options open for a week or so, until the feedback dwindles, by then I should have the best advice for my choices.

                  I just don't want to make the wrong choice then have someone say 'hey, why didn't you ask me?'

                  really, I'd rather have just a bit more power than I need than just a little short. But my skill with electrical is limited, hence the happiness at finding this forum

                  I'm sure there will be a way of returning the favor some day
                  Alan from Hamilton Ontario

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                    Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                    Originally posted by aldeon View Post
                    I say no now, but after the backyard is finished and looking all Purdy-like, I may rethink the idea...

                    I'll be keeping my options open for a week or so, until the feedback dwindles, by then I should have the best advice for my choices.

                    I just don't want to make the wrong choice then have someone say 'hey, why didn't you ask me?'

                    really, I'd rather have just a bit more power than I need than just a little short. But my skill with electrical is limited, hence the happiness at finding this forum

                    I'm sure there will be a way of returning the favor some day
                    If there's any possiblity of a hot tub in the future, then I'd go with a 200A service now, your price will be closer to $2000 then.
                    Mike

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                      Why the "After Inspection" changes

                      I'm doing multiple postings since I'm covering multiple topics.

                      Maybe I'm just the suspicious type but I see no good reason to plan to do work, have it inspected and then make changes. It sounds like something that wouldn't pass inspection is being hidden from view.

                      One other concern that has not come up is that you are referring to this as a garage/workshop. If it is a garage then there are requirements that have to do with the fact it may house cars both electrical and construction oriented. If it is actually an outbuilding then the requirements are different. If someone in the future decides they want to convert the outbuilding to a garage then they might have to upgrade the wiring if it didn't meet the then existing code. I'm not up on all the details but it is something you need to decide on.
                      Last edited by fdaluet; 03-04-2009, 11:00 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                        Why does different service cost differently?

                        I was just curious why a 200A service installation is ~$500 more expensive. I'm guessing its a combination of:
                        1. The utility charges more;
                        2. More expensive hardware such as the panel;
                        3. Takes more time and effort for the electrician; and possibly
                        4. We can get away with it.
                        As an aside, I would vote for the service upgrade to at least 100A and even 200A. It costs up to 33% more but you get a much more flexible installation and there is no "after inspection" tap dancing.
                        Last edited by fdaluet; 03-04-2009, 11:01 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                          Layout Suggestion

                          Instead of going with 20A sockets use split 15A. They can be fed from one cable and you get 30A at any one socket instead of 20A. It will chew up 2 slots in your panel.

                          You can do basic load calculations to see what your maximum draw will be. Part of it is determined by what you need to have going ( DC and saw or planer at same time) and part is controlled by how you control it ( don't have the trailer AC turned on when using the shop).

                          Numbers to use:
                          1. 15A @ 110V is 1650 Watts;
                          2. 15A @ 220V is 3300 Watts;
                          3. 1HP is 746W but is modified by how efficient the motor is, 80% efficient means the 1HP output motor is drawing 933Watts ( 746/.8). Personally I'd round the number to 750W = 1HP.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                            Re: Why the "After Inspection" changes

                            Originally posted by fdaluet View Post
                            I'm doing multiple postings since I'm covering multiple topics.

                            Maybe I'm just the suspicious type but I see no good reason to plan to do work, have it inspected and then make changes. It sounds like something that wouldn't pass inspection is being hidden from view.

                            Maybe I said it wrong. He planns on doing the household changes first then getting it inspected and in 6 months he's be doing phase two and connecting the garage and ALSO getting that inspected. I just don't know if his idea was correct for phase one or if there was a more appropriate way do do it.



                            One other concern that has not come up is that you are referring to this as a garage/workshop. If it is a garage then there are requirements that have to do with the fact it may house cars both electrical and construction oriented. If it is actually an outbuilding then the requirements are different. If someone in the future decides they want to convert the outbuilding to a garage then they might have to upgrade the wiring if it didn't meet the then existing code. I'm not up on all the details but it is something you need to decide on.
                            Officially I guess it will be a garage with a garage door and room to accept a Ford F350 inside (occasionally) with room to work and a drain to be able to wash it inside etc... It will also be my shop as I will be using maybe 45% floorspace for shop, 40% floorspace for shop BUT with movable tools and benches etc in case I need to take the truck inside for something and 15% for another counter space and floor to ceiling storage for non-wood related things i.e. mechanical\garden\sink\storage\wife's bike also I'm hoping for a large attic, but that part is dependant on city's hieght approval, which would also mean a large beam.

                            This will not be a flimsy structure
                            Alan from Hamilton Ontario

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Yet another Electrical question... Help!!!

                              Re: Why does different service cost differently?

                              Originally posted by fdaluet View Post
                              I was just curious why a 200A service installation is ~$500 more expensive. I'm guessing its a combination of:
                              1. The utility charges more;
                              2. More expensive hardware such as the panel;
                              3. Takes more time and effort for the electrician; and possibly
                              4. We can get away with it.
                              As an aside, I would vote for the service upgrade to at least 100A and even 200A. It costs up to 33% more but you get a much more flexible installation and there is no "after inspection" tap dancing.

                              Equipment costs are substantially more for 200A service, ie cost of wire #2 compared #000, panel costs more, larger conduit, labours a little more.
                              Mike

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X