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Thread: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

  1. #21

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Based on magazine reviews, Oneida and Grizzly are very close in terms of performance and grizzly is the better "value".
    Yes, but I am afraid about some bad customer reviews about grizzly like:
    Amazon customer reviews

    Alain, if you PM me your e-mail I'll contact Wellbeck for you and get them to quote you.
    Thanks ! I sent you a PM...

  2. #22

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    I've been cyclone shopping a little myself lately and it seems hard to beat the Grizzly deal right now (looking at the G0440, 2HP). While I like the idea of a V3000 (quieter (maybe), short, ready to use), Oneida's shipping is outrageous. They've also been verrrrry slow to respond to email where Grizzly has been right on the ball and keen to make a sale.

    Cheers,
    Kerry

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Not sure if you have seen the following close-out ones that Grizzly has. They seem to be shop-fox and look very similar (if not identical) to their Grizzly brand but the price is even lower:

    http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Clearance/3

  4. #24

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by mreza View Post
    Not sure if you have seen the following close-out ones that Grizzly has. They seem to be shop-fox and look very similar (if not identical) to their Grizzly brand but the price is even lower:

    http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Clearance/3
    I hadn't seen those. Looks like the main savings is that the ShopFox ones come with a stand where Grizzly doesn't include one (although I think I want to wall mount anyway). They sure do have very similar specs.

    Kerry

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Be careful with those specs. They list their Max CFM at a low low SP. What you want to see is what the fan can deliver at a working SP.
    My Clear Vue CV-1800 has a detailed performance curve and table. The unit gives 1442 CFM @ 4.19" SP. This falls to 578 CFM @ 12.89" SP. The sweet spot is 800 CFM @ ~11.5" SP.
    Grizzly publish pretty good curves for their branded machines, but you may have to dig for the same info on the Shop Fox units.
    The unknown is how well the actual cyclone is engineered to deliver the most efficient fine dust separation at the rated flows.

    Don

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    I bought a Oneida V3000 and finally got it assembled this weekend. I haven't powered it up since I don't have 220V in my shop yet. I did some research and honestly, even though I was trained as a scientist, my head was spinning. I ended describing my shop to the Oneida rep and decided to trust her recommendations.

    I'm surprised at the post that indicated difficulty in getting Oneida to respond. They have been very, very responsive to almost every request I've made to them. I did end up having the unit shipped to Buffalo and picked it up there. I figured I saved several hundred dollars that way, although the savings would be lost once you counted my driving time to Buffalo, I didn't need to worry about having to arrange to be at my cottage when the courier decided to get there. Their shipping within the US is very reasonable, so depending on where in Quebec the OP is, it might be worth it to have it shipped to a US holding service and pick it up there.

    At first I wanted to buy from Oneida partly because they were offering a lot of incentives (free HEPA upgrade, they offered me a free simple duct-design service, extra remotes for around $5 IIRC, plus a free Festool-compatible Ultimate Dust Deputy; the latter two incentives are NOT listed anymore so not sure if they are still available). Once I started talking to them, though, I felt like I *had* to buy from them, as they had invested so much time with me and were that nice.

    If their "Smart Collector" had been available when I ordered mine, I *might* have sprung for that instead. I like the idea of a smaller, semi-mobile unit, and it has some sort of flame-suppressing feature plus an overfill sensor.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by NuggyBuggy View Post
    I bought a Oneida V3000 and finally got it assembled this weekend. I haven't powered it up since I don't have 220V in my shop yet. I did some research and honestly, even though I was trained as a scientist, my head was spinning. I ended describing my shop to the Oneida rep and decided to trust her recommendations.

    I'm surprised at the post that indicated difficulty in getting Oneida to respond. They have been very, very responsive to almost every request I've made to them. I did end up having the unit shipped to Buffalo and picked it up there. I figured I saved several hundred dollars that way, although the savings would be lost once you counted my driving time to Buffalo, I didn't need to worry about having to arrange to be at my cottage when the courier decided to get there. Their shipping within the US is very reasonable, so depending on where in Quebec the OP is, it might be worth it to have it shipped to a US holding service and pick it up there.

    At first I wanted to buy from Oneida partly because they were offering a lot of incentives (free HEPA upgrade, they offered me a free simple duct-design service, extra remotes for around $5 IIRC, plus a free Festool-compatible Ultimate Dust Deputy; the latter two incentives are NOT listed anymore so not sure if they are still available). Once I started talking to them, though, I felt like I *had* to buy from them, as they had invested so much time with me and were that nice.

    If their "Smart Collector" had been available when I ordered mine, I *might* have sprung for that instead. I like the idea of a smaller, semi-mobile unit, and it has some sort of flame-suppressing feature plus an overfill sensor.
    They threw in an Ultimate Dust Deputy? Geez, as of yesterday all they were offering me was $100 off. Not a bad thing, but doesn't really soften the $495 delivery fee much. I'd like to know why can Grizzly ship theirs for $149? Is it just that they have the option to ship from several locations? I'll be very interested in hearing your impression of noise and performance once you get it fired up and connected. I'm not too pleased to hear about your installation experiences in the other thread. I really didn't want to buy a project .

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry in Fort Sask, AB View Post
    They threw in an Ultimate Dust Deputy? Geez, as of yesterday all they were offering me was $100 off. Not a bad thing, but doesn't really soften the $495 delivery fee much. I'd like to know why can Grizzly ship theirs for $149? Is it just that they have the option to ship from several locations? I'll be very interested in hearing your impression of noise and performance once you get it fired up and connected. I'm not too pleased to hear about your installation experiences in the other thread. I really didn't want to buy a project .
    Kerry,

    It was a special promotion they had - get a free UDD with cyclones 2HP+ and up. They also had a promotion where you got (IIRC) a free 2nd remote, and extra remotes were really cheap - I bought about 7 total ;). Also they were offering free HEPA upgrades but it looks like that's standard now.

    As for how difficult the "project" was, to be fair, I got it together with my brother (parts of the install really need two people) in an hour or two. If we could get it going, I'd bet everyone else here could get it done - faster and better . It was just weird.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry in Fort Sask, AB View Post
    I'm not too pleased to hear about your installation experiences in the other thread. I really didn't want to buy a project .
    Kerry,
    I do not think any of the larger cyclones are going to be turn key out of the box. Oneida and JDS have portable cyclones but the price is high and you would have to study the performance curves etc. Oneida are all over the place with this info these days. Performance data is not presented consistently across their models so making comparisons is difficult.
    Getting the cyclone in place is one job. Getting the pipe in places is it's own project. 6" SCH 40 PVC is a totally different cat from 4" flex.

    Don

  10. #30

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Burch View Post
    Kerry,
    I do not think any of the larger cyclones are going to be turn key out of the box. Oneida and JDS have portable cyclones but the price is high and you would have to study the performance curves etc. Oneida are all over the place with this info these days. Performance data is not presented consistently across their models so making comparisons is difficult.
    Getting the cyclone in place is one job. Getting the pipe in places is it's own project. 6" SCH 40 PVC is a totally different cat from 4" flex.

    Don
    Hi Don,

    I realize the ducting is going to be a project in itself, and one I'll be glad to have behind me. Thankfully with my tiny shop, there won't be much. I do want the machine itself to be as turn-key as possible, which is one of the advertised features of Oneida's V-series. I looked at the fan curves for some portables a while back (I think someone posted the link here) and it seemed to me they were, understandably, inferior to a fixed unit. I could be wrong, but that's what I took to be the case when I looked several months back. Add on the price penalty and a fixed machine looks even better, especially since I will never have a need to move it (small shop).

    Cheers,
    Kerry

  11. #31

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    The V-3000 can be a portable and I have seen pictures of a number of them on mobile bases and stands. I can actually move mine by dragging it but am in the process of making a mobile base. Mine is connected to one specialized machine but there is a need to move it back and forth about 4 feet due to access needs in the shop. The best location for the V-3000 is in front of a stock rack and if it can be moved back and forth there is no problem pulling out the stock lengths as needed. It's connected to the machine with a single 10 foot length of 6" flex so no duct problems.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    FWIW
    I have had the Grizzly 3hp cyclone in my shop now for apx 2yrs and have been quite happy with it. It's not nearly as loud and my former 1 1/2hp bagged dust collector. As I am able to carry on a conversation with it and the tablesaw running. MY shop is 22' x 23' in size with hard surface plywood on the walls and ceiling. All of my ducting is 6" pvc s/d and I get loads of suction at all gate locations so much so that I can run two or more machines at a time. I have a contractor style table saw with the 6" outlet for the dc set into the bottom and 99% of all below table dust is captured even with the back side of the saw open.

    One thing I should mention though is that I still get fine dust making it's way to the filter and over the course of two years use I can say that perhaps a Quart sized jar of very fine dust has wound up in the filter, yet I have probably emptied the collection barrel 75 times or more.

    John

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    I am considering this unit from Laguna.

    http://www.lagunatools.com/accessori...tor-cyclone2_2

    It is sold by Elite tools in Quebec and Canadian Woodworker out west. I have heard very good things about it. Elite being local and french speaking should make things a lot easier for you.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry in Fort Sask, AB View Post
    I've been cyclone shopping a little myself lately and it seems hard to beat the Grizzly deal right now (looking at the G0440, 2HP). While I like the idea of a V3000 (quieter (maybe), short, ready to use), Oneida's shipping is outrageous. They've also been verrrrry slow to respond to email where Grizzly has been right on the ball and keen to make a sale.

    Cheers,
    Kerry
    I wonder if there still is an issue of chip collection vs. dust collection, the latter being the 'fines', the sub 10micron particulars that pose a breathing health risk.

    Someone on www.sawmillcreek.com resurrected a dust collection thread from 2005 in which Bill Prentz said in august of that year that apart from his design sold as Clearvue and a brand call Woodsucker, then existing cyclones being sold to amateur woodwooders by Grizzly, Oneida, were all based on huge agricultural cyclones that are mounted outside commercial establishments and that these designs do a great job in chip collection but are, in his words, 'terrible fine dust collectors'.
    Prentz went on to say "almost every hobbyist cyclone vendor is now abandoning this design as quickly as they can" - so perhaps the 'new' generation of hobbyist cyclones are not subject to Prentz's 2005 criticism.

    When I read of woodworkers with canister filters on their cyclones, still needing to shake out fine dust particles embedded in the filter material, it seems to me that such cyclones are not doing a great job in collecting the 'fines'...... but, short of using something like a Dylos dust monitor or a person having an immediate physical reaction to 'fines' I suspect it is difficult to get empirical evidence of a cyclone is doing 'second generation' fine dust collection.

    I've tried to locate the sawmillcreek thread in which I downloaded Prentz's comments to provide a direct link to it but can't locate it.... I know that I saw and printed out Prentz's comments sometime in the last six weeks however so a more thorough search should turn up the thread.

    Any comments from others on whether there is first and second generation of hobbyist cyclones with a big difference in fine dust collection between them?

    Kerry, I'm not trying to generate contraversy, just suggesting some further research before you make your cyclone purchase.

    good luck

    michael

  15. #35

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by michaely View Post
    Kerry, I'm not trying to generate contraversy, just suggesting some further research before you make your cyclone purchase.

    good luck

    michael

    No problem Michael. FWIW, the Oneida rep I spoke with told me that the fines separation on the V-series is better than their Gorilla series since the cone is longer. Of course, they didn't offer up any test results or literature to back it up, but I suppose it could be possible.

    Kerry

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by michaely View Post
    I wonder if there still is an issue of chip collection vs. dust collection, the latter being the 'fines', the sub 10micron particulars that pose a breathing health risk.
    How about sub 1 micron.

    I am working with some Claro Walnut that just sniffing makes my eyes water. I thought Coffetree was bad..

    .......................
    When I read of woodworkers with canister filters on their cyclones, still needing to shake out fine dust particles embedded in the filter material, it seems to me that such cyclones are not doing a great job in collecting the 'fines'...... but, short of using something like a Dylos dust monitor or a person having an immediate physical reaction to 'fines' I suspect it is difficult to get empirical evidence of a cyclone is doing 'second generation' fine dust collection.
    None of these devices can give 100% separation of all particulate but it would be really nice if there was a standard that allowed you to line them up and make a one to one comparison.
    Remember, the advantage of a cyclone is 2 stage separation. The first stage is through cyclonic action into the waste bin. The second stage is in the filter element. The more efficient the stage one separation is, the more efficient the elements in stage can be. If the system can survive for several years with a 0.5 micron exit filter trapping 99.995%, then the cyclone is probably operating extremely well.
    In one of Pentz's discussions he states that first stage separation of 80-85% by weight is common. His design targets a minimum of 98% by weight of all dust and 99.9% of all particles 5 micron and larger in the first stage. He also states that because of the extra overhead required to push the air through the separation spiral, seasoned filters a minimum of 3 HP is required.
    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...74033#poststop

    Finally, there is the question of tool ports, hoods and pickups. If these aren't sized, installed and sealed properly it doesn't really matter how much DC you have.

    I've tried to locate the sawmillcreek thread in which I downloaded Prentz's comments to provide a direct link to it but can't locate it.... I know that I saw and printed out Prentz's comments sometime in the last six weeks however so a more thorough search should turn up the thread.
    In this article he starts to speak favourably about other cyclones
    http://www.liwoodworkers.org/resourc...COMMENTARY.pdf

    Any comments from others on whether there is first and second generation of hobbyist cyclones with a big difference in fine dust collection between them?
    Input here would be great. But where we might go from single stage to cyclone at some point, not many with older cyclones are going to replace them because they really won't know.

    Kerry, I'm not trying to generate contraversy, just suggesting some further research before you make your cyclone purchase.

    good luck

    michael
    ]

    Don

  17. #37

    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    I just found that cyclone model on BusyBee website today, it does not seem
    to exist when I do my research in July... It resembles to the JDS model...
    It could be an alternative to Grizzly G040 I thought to buy soon ...

    Is someone have some experience with this model? What do you think?

    CRAFTEX CYCLONE-DUST-COLLECTOR
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    The separation efficiency of that cyclone will be poor due to the short cyclone cone.

    In a cyclone the particles spin against the cone wall, lose speed and drop down out of the cone into the chip barrel.

    The longer the taper on the cyclone, the higher percentage of particles that are removed from the airstream and drop into the barrel.

    Remember that the air stream then goes up the center of the cone into the fan intake.

    A short cone won't work with fine particles, it would separate marbles just fine however.

    Regards, Rod.

    P.S. Welbeck Sawmill in Ontario have Oneida cyclones in stock, it's where I bought mine.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 09-20-2010 at 08:07 AM. Reason: Added Post Script

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlainMD View Post
    I just found that cyclone model on BusyBee website today, it does not seem
    to exist when I do my research in July... It resembles to the JDS model...
    It could be an alternative to Grizzly G040 I thought to buy soon ...

    Is someone have some experience with this model? What do you think?

    CRAFTEX CYCLONE-DUST-COLLECTOR
    That looks just like the Laguna 2hp model. I have the 3hp Laguna(which looks just like the BB 3hp model) and love it. It sells at Canadian Woodworker for $2,395 (though I paid less) as compared to the $2,049 of the BB one. The specs are very similar. I opted for the 3hp model, not only for the added power, but for the much larger collection drum, and am really glad I did, as it fills up real fast when planing rough stock. I like the remote and automatic filter cleaning it offers.

    Actually, the cyclone works great, and captures almost all the particles that come in it. I dumped out at least 150 gallons from the drum before dumping about 1 gallon that was collected from the filter bag.

    PS, I was just at the Laguna site and they no longer offer the 2hp mobile cyclone.
    Last edited by BearLeeAlive; 09-20-2010 at 04:37 PM.
    JIM
    Calgary, AB

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Choosing the right CYCLONE dust collector...

    Quote Originally Posted by BearLeeAlive View Post

    Actually, the cyclone works great, and captures almost all the particles that come in it. I dumped out at least 150 gallons from the drum before dumping about 1 gallon that was collected from the filter bag.
    I don't want to pour on your pride but that sounds really bad IMO. A good cyclone will have a much much better ratio of separation (like a few spoons of dust in the filter drum/bag with that much dust in the main drum).
    The fact that it needs a motor for cleaning the filters constantly tells something to me about the design of the cyclone....

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