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Thread: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

  1. #1
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    Default Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Hello fellow WW

    I just have a couple of question about the Bill Pentz cyclone
    1. Was anyone in Alberta ever had it built for them in a metal shop, if so can I have a contact name
    2. Were is a good source to get the impeller preferably in Alberta but anywhere in Canada would just be fine, how much did it cost?
    3. For the motor has anyone ever bought the 5hp lesson? Have you guys used a 3hp motor it doesn't matter to me if it was a Taiwanese motor
    4. Any name of more woodworking forums in Canada were I would post this questions?

    Appreciate any answer

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    I don't live in alberta. But I know of one person here in Ontario that has built one himself. I personally found that the cost of buying one built right for me was by far cheaper than trying to build it myself. I'd rather be woodworking that metal forming.

    In answer to question 2. I think the best place to get the impeller, is Clearvue. Actually, i think its the best place to get the whole unit.

    3. I have the 5hp leeson motor. http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/120554.htm This motor if you bothered to read the details in Bill's site was specially designed for him. It allows you to run this sucker continuously without the danger of over taxing and melting the windings. I think that most of the Taiwanese motors don't stand up, and the way that the offshore dc's get around it is to choke down the airflow to a point that the motor isn't running near capacity. if you put one of them into Bill's cyclone they would fry in short order.
    Matt

    People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Beard Woodworking View Post
    Hello fellow WW

    I just have a couple of question about the Bill Pentz cyclone
    1. Was anyone in Alberta ever had it built for them in a metal shop, if so can I have a contact name
    My friend built one himself. Pentz freely distributes detailed plans from his website. Print them off and take to any competent sheet metal company or build yourself. Check Bill's site. His son was going to manufacture kits.

    2. Were is a good source to get the impeller preferably in Alberta but anywhere in Canada would just be fine, how much did it cost?
    The advantage of the Pentz design is in the cyclone itself. You can attach any decent blower to it. I'll confirm for you but my friend attached a 2 or 3HP blower assembly from a single stage DC. His total duct run is about 10 ft to his table saw.

    3. For the motor has anyone ever bought the 5hp lesson? Have you guys used a 3hp motor it doesn't matter to me if it was a Taiwanese motor
    Again, Leeson is used by Clear Vue, to support the text book Pentz design, including vertical mount.
    If you go the complete blower/motor unit you should end up with a balanced unit, proper shaft attachment (bushings) etc., and you can leave the motor mounted horizontally.

    4. Any name of more woodworking forums in Canada were I would post this questions?

    Appreciate any answer

    Thanks
    Don

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Thanks Matt and Ron for the reply, I do know I can get the free plans from Bill's website what I'm wondering is if anyone in Alberta ever had it built for them, like Matt said I rather be woodworking than working with metal.
    By the way Ron did you ever found out if ur buddy ever used a 2hp or 3hp blower from an existing DC to power Bill's cyclone

    Thanks

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    One item that needs mentioning is the idea that the Leeson motor selected by Bill is somehow special.

    The only special thing about the motor is that it has been modified to have a C face mounting.

    The motor is a compressor duty motor with a 1.0 service factor, which is the lowest service factor available unless you purchase a duty cycle motor.

    The motor is also an open type, which means that dust and dirt can be drawn into the motor via the open ventilation slots.

    The good thing about the motor is that it is oversized since the cyclone/blower combination cannot supply enough airflow to use 5 HP.

    Other cyclone manufacturers use well rated motors, my Oneida cyclone uses a 1.15 service factor motor, in a TEFC style (Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled), which keeps the dust out of the motor.

    I'm not suggesting that you don't build a Clearvue cyclone, just providing a little more information on the motor choice..........Regards, Rod.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    I just did the calculations on my 5hp leeson and it comes out to 5hp. Thats what I draw with 3 blast gates open on my system. Now I can understand why Bill used that motor.
    5.01HP = 245V x 18.5A x 82.5%
    746
    If I'm not mistaken a service factor of 1 means you can only run it up to the name plate rating and a service factor of 1.15 means that the motor can operate at 1.15 times the name plate rating for a brief period.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    In doing my research I was concerned about the open drip proof enclosure, but could not find any reports of problems. I suppose that is an advantage to a very efficient cyclone, although over time there is always going to be a build up of dust and grunge around the motor from somewhere. There are a couple of very serious dust generators using the Clear Vue/Leeson combination. I will check with them.

    Many who run the cyclone totally within their shop, isolate the unit in an enclosure as mresa is doing.
    http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...earvue-(part-1)

    That may account for the continued uses of that enclosure. I would think that if there were motor failures due to this, they would have made a change before now.

    For overall performance, the motor must handle the job as I have not found any negatives on motor performance. Noise yes, everything else fine. Again, there are a few users who run this cyclone in commercial applications.

    Don

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    this is very interesting as I am finishing off the install of my unit. Right now, to get it in with enough clearance, I opted to bolt the motor up higher with the hanging bracket straddled between two roof rafters, and the motor part sticking above the ceiling line. This in itself poses several problems.

    1. You can't see the motor at all as it is located above a finished roof.
    2. There is blown in insulation all around the unit

    I have planned to build a box wall to keep the blown in insulation away from the motor. This will consist of 1/4" plywood on 4 sides, and a styrofoam insulation lid ontop.

    What I have not yet figured out is:

    a. how much clearance space is needed around the motor for proper air circulation/cooling
    b. with this being in the atic space, in the winter it can get very cold, and summer very hot. How will this effect the motor.

    I could enlarge the opening around the mounting beams to allow air from the shop to have access to the motor, but that would defeat any sound muffling advantage in putting the motor above the ceiling level.

    I will try posting on the clearvue forum and see what the minds that be out there think of it.
    Matt

    People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Hi Matt, the motor won't make any noise, it's the air and dust in the blower/cyclone and ducting that cause the noise.

    The motor won't mind the cold, the heat however could be a problem for continuous operation, however in a home shop I wouldn't expect any issues.

    The motor will need a continuous supply of fresh air, so putting it in a sealed box won't be a good idea. It will need about 6 inches of clearance to allow air intake for the motor.

    regards, Rod.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    IMG_0044 markup.jpg

    Here is the unit currently installed. I was planning to build the box around it. My father suggested that it would be best to put some rigid foam insulation around it to keep it warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer.

    There is a gap around the bottom of the mount that air can get in and out. Putting a top to the box would not be that hard.

    Hope a photo/diagram helps to explain.
    Matt

    People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    The problem with that setup is that the hot air exhausts right at the motor mounting disk just above the impeller and you run the risk of recirculating the hot air from the motor. You would be better off if you do put a box to cover the motor to seal around the motor where it goes thru the mount and provide another opening for fresh air.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    I just went and snapped a few pics of my motor and how close it is to the ceiling.
    002 (601 x 800).jpg001 (750 x 563).jpg

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Matt,
    Could not find any info on specific clearances, but both Leeson and Baldor recomend keeping the ambient temperature under 40 C. As Rod notes, the motor is quiet, it is that massive amount of air you will be moving that makes the noise.
    Consider perhaps a whirlybird near by with a duct running from the shop ceiling or even outside the building into the box. Some vent holes properly sized at the top and you should be able to induce a decent flow.

    Don

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    If I remember correctly (it's somewhere on Bill Pentz website) the 15" impeller Clearvue sells needs around 4HP and since there are only 3 or 5HP motors out hence
    the use of 5HP. Clearvue also sells a 16" impeller unit which I think will use the full 5HP capacity of the motor.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.mackinnon View Post
    this is very interesting as I am finishing off the install of my unit. Right now, to get it in with enough clearance, I opted to bolt the motor up higher with the hanging bracket straddled between two roof rafters, and the motor part sticking above the ceiling line. This in itself poses several problems.

    1. You can't see the motor at all as it is located above a finished roof.
    2. There is blown in insulation all around the unit

    I have planned to build a box wall to keep the blown in insulation away from the motor. This will consist of 1/4" plywood on 4 sides, and a styrofoam insulation lid ontop.

    What I have not yet figured out is:

    a. how much clearance space is needed around the motor for proper air circulation/cooling
    b. with this being in the atic space, in the winter it can get very cold, and summer very hot. How will this effect the motor.

    I could enlarge the opening around the mounting beams to allow air from the shop to have access to the motor, but that would defeat any sound muffling advantage in putting the motor above the ceiling level.

    I will try posting on the clearvue forum and see what the minds that be out there think of it.

    I did a little snooping around at work and found the following:

    Open drip proof is not a bad design. In fact if the air circulating around the outside is fairly clean, the actual cooling is more efficient as the air will circulate through the motor core and the shell is not as heavy as with the TEFC. So there are trade offs.

    A service factor of 1.0 is not a bad thing as long as the circuit protection kicks in before the motor exceeds its full load amps. The motor has overload protection, but you will be crawling to the attic to reset the motor. A service factor of greater than 1 allows the motor to draw greater than the name plate amperage for extended periods of time without damage.

    I think you do not want to become tempted to run the unit before a significant amount of ducting and the filters are installed.

    You might consider making your enclosure out of sheet aluminum to improve conductivity.

    Keep your motor vented and clean and you are good to go.

    Don

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Beard Woodworking View Post
    Hello fellow WW

    I just have a couple of question about the Bill Pentz cyclone
    1. Was anyone in Alberta ever had it built for them in a metal shop, if so can I have a contact name
    Just a quick updated I found someone that is willing to build the cyclone for $250 out of 22awg galvanized steel, they will even assemble it, the manufacture will even reduce the price if we order 10+ units if anyone is interested just PM or reply to this tread

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Hello

    Not long ago a found a tread about someone who had some autocad drawings for an impeller, I have searched since yesterday but I can still find it, has anyone since this tread, if so can you point me to the tread

    Thanks

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    Anyone interested in a brand new Lesson motor, catalog 120554, this is the same motor that Bill Pentz uses on his cyclone price is $310 with out the C-face bell end or $360 with the C-face already installed. Send me an PM if intersted

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    cyclone cut original.jpgHello

    I have a question, hopefully some one you build the bill pentz cyclone can help me, so I have to make the cut for the upper cylinder to allow the rectangle transition to enter the cylinder, so what I'm not to sure is on the drawing it does not give you a dimension for both red cut line that are closer to the edge of the sheet, please see cyclone cut jpeg for a better understanding cyclone cut.jpgcyclone cut google sketch.jpg, for a comparison between cyclone cut jpeg between cyclone cut original jgep
    Last edited by Red Beard Woodworking; 01-17-2013 at 08:45 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Bill Pentz Cyclone build

    There are either 3/8" tabs or 3/4" tabs. The 3/4" tabs are used to join the upper part of the cyclone to the cone. The 3/8" tabs are used at the cyclone rectangular inlet and where you join the ends together after you roll it.

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