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Thread: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

  1. #1
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    Default HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Have people seen this product from Oneida? I think it's a great upgrade for those with single stage collectors that have pleated filters of unknown construction/standards etc. I expect there are performance impacts etc, but at least you know it's not just blowing the nastiest dust right back into the room!

    http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD...9-47817428D9AF}
    Last edited by timberframe; 01-20-2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: added link

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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    No help here, other than I've been looking for something like this, thanks.

    Btw, the link got messed up and is is missing the curly brace at the end.

    http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=FXK011820&CatId={428A1AFA-E859-459E-8BF9-47817428D9AF}

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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Just to let you know that this is not a true-HEPA filter, the H12 that Oneida sells is only rated at 99.5%, I don't know why they are claiming 99.97%

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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Hi Red Beard, I'm confused about this because apparently it has to be a minimum of 99.97% efficient @ 0.3 or 0.3 and larger in order to be called HEPA anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA

    I see the number you quote in the E12 category, but don't see it in the H12.....so I'm confused. Also, the Wikipedia information is inconsistant too....I'm looking for other sources.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Some more info:
    http://www.engineersedge.com/filtrat...lter_types.htm

    "By definition, a HEPA filter......a minimum particle removal efficiency of no less than 99.97% for 0.3micron particles...."

    The ones Oneida sells are independantly certified HEPA filters, with the certifications available on their site....

    More info: http://www.naturalsolutions1.com/whathepa.htm

  6. #6
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    I know what you mean timberframe, when it comes to HEPA I been told numerous times check that the filter says TRUE-HEPA and that you get a certificate of it performance, I know you can get some filter that are rated HEPA-TYPE that are rated at 99% of the 2 micron particles. I did download the test result from Oneida and it seem that they are a TRUE-HEPA filter.

    Can you get them here in Canada, thru an Oneida sell rep

  7. #7
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Hi Red Beard, good to know it appears to be the real thing. There are probably also ratings for it whereby people could assess any impacts on suction caused by the finer filter (if it`s heavily pleated there may be none). For what it`s worth, I think people should be jumping on this product as a great upgrade for their asian import single stage cyclones with bag filters, or the pleated canister filters of unknown performance!

    There are retail outlets in Canada who sell Oneida, and perhaps the web site has a list. Welbeck sawmill in Ontario deals with them, and Gary is a great guy...they can-certainly ship to you.

    B

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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Quote Originally Posted by timberframe View Post
    Hi Red Beard, good to know it appears to be the real thing. There are probably also ratings for it whereby people could assess any impacts on suction caused by the finer filter (if it`s heavily pleated there may be none). For what it`s worth, I think people should be jumping on this product as a great upgrade for their asian import single stage cyclones with bag filters, or the pleated canister filters of unknown performance!

    There are retail outlets in Canada who sell Oneida, and perhaps the web site has a list. Welbeck sawmill in Ontario deals with them, and Gary is a great guy...they can-certainly ship to you.

    B
    A couple of thoughts:

    1. HEPA ratings are absolute 0.3 micron. Part of the reason they are used in very specific applications. The Oneida first page on these filters says:
    "- 99.977% at 0.3 to 0.5 microns efficiency". That is a range.

    2. There is no third party certification attached to this filter offering. GE is a manufacturer and may well be a competent tesing agency but the literature is vague. The only part of the attachment that relates to media efficiency is the graph. No reference as to who conducted the test and to what standard. The GE technical document makes no mention of a MERV rating, yet Oneida includes it. This would come from the manufacturer.

    From one of your original links you did not to include the part that says HEPA filters are throw away. There are not designed to be cleaned, so when you overflow your waste bin, guess what? That premium element is pretty much garbage. Other site speak of cleaning HEPA media so who knows.
    HEPA is for hospitals and high end electronics clean rooms and nuclear facilities, not your average workshop. The applications for which HEPA is really required have absolutely no interest in cleaning and reusing a filter. So there is the trade off a high level of filtration for increased cost.

    The Oneida offering is cleanable and carries no 3rd party certification.

    I would argue that unless you have absolute control over collection at the various sources in your shop, this may amount to major overkill and a big expense when you have to replace regularly.

    If you have nothing less than excellent source collection and are operating in your home, and never overflow, this might be a wise investment.

    This is certainly not a bad filter element in the correct application. The applications which typically utilize these filters are filtering possibly contaminated clean air. In our workshop, the dust sream is very dirty air.

    As with all things relating to consumer dust collection, there are no standards. The manufacturers have free reign of the realm. You have to have a bit of scepticism when reading the performance claims. If the big 2 stage cyclones made by Oneida, Clear Vue and a few others, with their big motors and impellers can only give less than 1500 cfm in a real world setup, how can a 2HP unit be expected to provide 1700 cfm or even 2200 cfm. They can't but the testing is not done in a real world setup.

    All of the information present so far has come from interpretations of the standard - why? Because to get at the standard requires payment.

    Just be careful where you are going with this.

    Don

  9. #9
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Burch View Post
    A couple of thoughts:

    1. HEPA ratings are absolute 0.3 micron. Part of the reason they are used in very specific applications. The Oneida first page on these filters says:
    "- 99.977% at 0.3 to 0.5 microns efficiency". That is a range.

    2. There is no third party certification attached to this filter offering. GE is a manufacturer and may well be a competent tesing agency but the literature is vague. The only part of the attachment that relates to media efficiency is the graph. No reference as to who conducted the test and to what standard. The GE technical document makes no mention of a MERV rating, yet Oneida includes it. This would come from the manufacturer.

    From one of your original links you did not to include the part that says HEPA filters are throw away. There are not designed to be cleaned, so when you overflow your waste bin, guess what? That premium element is pretty much garbage. Other site speak of cleaning HEPA media so who knows.
    HEPA is for hospitals and high end electronics clean rooms and nuclear facilities, not your average workshop. The applications for which HEPA is really required have absolutely no interest in cleaning and reusing a filter. So there is the trade off a high level of filtration for increased cost.

    The Oneida offering is cleanable and carries no 3rd party certification.

    I would argue that unless you have absolute control over collection at the various sources in your shop, this may amount to major overkill and a big expense when you have to replace regularly.

    If you have nothing less than excellent source collection and are operating in your home, and never overflow, this might be a wise investment.

    This is certainly not a bad filter element in the correct application. The applications which typically utilize these filters are filtering possibly contaminated clean air. In our workshop, the dust sream is very dirty air.

    As with all things relating to consumer dust collection, there are no standards. The manufacturers have free reign of the realm. You have to have a bit of scepticism when reading the performance claims. If the big 2 stage cyclones made by Oneida, Clear Vue and a few others, with their big motors and impellers can only give less than 1500 cfm in a real world setup, how can a 2HP unit be expected to provide 1700 cfm or even 2200 cfm. They can't but the testing is not done in a real world setup.

    All of the information present so far has come from interpretations of the standard - why? Because to get at the standard requires payment.

    Just be careful where you are going with this.

    Don
    Don, some things are unclear, but it seems from my reading that Oneida isn't to blame for some of it, though they should be clearer on some things. I have read countless descriptions of HEPA being described as filtering 99.977% of particles, BETWEEN 0.3 and 0.5 microns, and countless descriptions of it described as filtering 99.977% OF 0.3 micron particles.....and sometimes both in the same article. I don't know what the standard really is, but the details aren't terribly important to me, because what I do know is that HEPA grade filters are extremely well respected for helping people out with dust sensitivities, allergies etc etc etc. There's a reason why doctors recommend that standard for helping conserve people's respiratory health, even before you have respiratory problems. They should be clearer about where they get the MERV rating....I expect it was evaluated at the same time as the particle fraction, but they don't say.

    I'm not sure what you mean by throw away, and I can't see that in documentation associated with the Oneida products. Are you inferring that because they can be damaged if abused in some way? Well I suppose an armored tank is throw away too if it gets abused enough. If by throw away you mean it is not repairable, then as far as I understand you're right. But I think you are suggesting that because HEPA filters are not cleanable, and Oneida says theirs are, then that must mean the Oneida filters are not HEPA? It's my understanding that in many applications users just don't bother to clean the filter (and the manufacturer would sell more if you don't), not that they are non-cleanable. I expect because of their very fine structure, they are sensitive, and they would prefer people not try to clean them and screw it up, but I've never understood them to be absolutely, categorically, without a question uncleanable. Oneida does give us some careful instructions for how to clean theirs, and sells an SP meter to show when cleaning is required......they also say that eventually you will have to replace it. Would an Oneida filter be killed by planer chips hitting it when your single stage gets overfilled? I don't know, but it's an excellent question I didn't think of.

    Regarding certification, it does seem that GE is self evaluating here, and third party might be nice....however since these are made and evaluated in North America (in the litigation happy USA no less) I expect they would be stupid to produce a product that they claim to have tested to HEPA grades, but actually be something less. I expect the company lawyers for those companies that are doing it right would be all over them....but you never know.

    ***UPDATE*** - Actually Don, most of the Oneida filters do have third party certification, but there is not mention of it in the description of this particular product.

    SO......if you accept that these are really HEPA quality filters and Oneida/GE are not scamming us all, my main point is: at least you know these upgrade filters ARE actually to a known standard. If you want to see unknown, nebulous standards, try finding respectable spec sheets and certification certificates for the, made in China "ACME Dust Collector Company, super duper canister filter".....shudder. Is HEPA quality excessive for someone in their shop? Without a question, this is NOT for me to say. I may be convinced with research that HEPA quality is not required for me, but some known standard is required for me. If HEPA is overkill for me....I'm fine with that, but I agree with you wholeheartedly: the industry NEEDS to sharpen up and build to known standards. Companies can't import and sell a desk lamp without the cord being CSA certified.....I think the same concept should be applied to DC performance.
    Last edited by timberframe; 01-23-2012 at 03:12 PM. Reason: 3rd party certification update

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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    There are several extensive articles related to dust collection in FWW -Tools and Shops Annual issue 2011/2012 Winter # 223. For those interested in knowing more in- depth, it's probably worth getting a copy if you don't have on-line access as it's @ 15 pages including comparative testing of shop vacs.
    They do cover HEPA and recommend ASHRAE certified products tested to meet or exceed MERV-expressed efficiencies only. Look for products tested by a reputable independent 3rd party. Retailers will be happy to produce that document if their product meets standards and generally post it on their internet site. They show an example from Oneida's third party test result. They caution away from anything advertising terms like "HEPA-type" and recommend only HEPA-certified filters. That may exclude the majority of filters now in the market-place and commonly available.
    I was shocked to see the outcome of their testing on 6 shop vacs (Bosch Airsweep 3931A -the winner, 2- DeWalt's, Dustless Technologies, Fein and Festool CT26- a distant #6). How could they exclude Rigid from testing???
    They strongly recommend use of a pre-separator and HEPA filter on shop vacs.
    There's also an intriguing design and plans for a mobile "Wired Workbench" which includes capacity for shop vac and pre-separator. At 48"L x 32"W x@32"H it isn't small but offers a lot of functionality.
    Last edited by Rick Thom; 01-23-2012 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Quote Originally Posted by timberframe View Post
    Don, some things are unclear, but it seems from my reading that Oneida isn't to blame for some of it, though they should be clearer on some things. I have read countless descriptions of HEPA being described as filtering 99.977% of particles, BETWEEN 0.3 and 0.5 microns, and countless descriptions of it described as filtering 99.977% OF 0.3 micron particles.....and sometimes both in the same article. I don't know what the standard really is, but the details aren't terribly important to me, because what I do know is that HEPA grade filters are extremely well respected for helping people out with dust sensitivities, allergies etc etc etc. There's a reason why doctors recommend that standard for helping conserve people's respiratory health, even before you have respiratory problems. They should be clearer about where they get the MERV rating....I expect it was evaluated at the same time as the particle fraction, but they don't say.

    I'm not sure what you mean by throw away, and I can't see that in documentation associated with the Oneida products. Are you inferring that because they can be damaged if abused in some way? Well I suppose an armored tank is throw away too if it gets abused enough. If by throw away you mean it is not repairable, then as far as I understand you're right. But I think you are suggesting that because HEPA filters are not cleanable, and Oneida says theirs are, then that must mean the Oneida filters are not HEPA? It's my understanding that in many applications users just don't bother to clean the filter (and the manufacturer would sell more if you don't), not that they are non-cleanable. I expect because of their very fine structure, they are sensitive, and they would prefer people not try to clean them and screw it up, but I've never understood them to be absolutely, categorically, without a question uncleanable. Oneida does give us some careful instructions for how to clean theirs, and sells an SP meter to show when cleaning is required......they also say that eventually you will have to replace it. Would an Oneida filter be killed by planer chips hitting it when your single stage gets overfilled? I don't know, but it's an excellent question I didn't think of.

    Regarding certification, it does seem that GE is self evaluating here, and third party might be nice....however since these are made and evaluated in North America (in the litigation happy USA no less) I expect they would be stupid to produce a product that they claim to have tested to HEPA grades, but actually be something less. I expect the company lawyers for those companies that are doing it right would be all over them....but you never know.

    ***UPDATE*** - Actually Don, most of the Oneida filters do have third party certification, but there is not mention of it in the description of this particular product.

    SO......if you accept that these are really HEPA quality filters and Oneida/GE are not scamming us all, my main point is: at least you know these upgrade filters ARE actually to a known standard. If you want to see unknown, nebulous standards, try finding respectable spec sheets and certification certificates for the, made in China "ACME Dust Collector Company, super duper canister filter".....shudder. Is HEPA quality excessive for someone in their shop? Without a question, this is NOT for me to say. I may be convinced with research that HEPA quality is not required for me, but some known standard is required for me. If HEPA is overkill for me....I'm fine with that, but I agree with you wholeheartedly: the industry NEEDS to sharpen up and build to known standards. Companies can't import and sell a desk lamp without the cord being CSA certified.....I think the same concept should be applied to DC performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by timberframe View Post
    Don, some things are unclear, but it seems from my reading that Oneida isn't to blame for some of it, though they should be clearer on some things.
    I would hold the Oneida have a position of some prominence in this area and should go above and beyond to ensure the product description is beyond reproach.


    I have read countless descriptions of HEPA being described as filtering 99.977% of particles, BETWEEN 0.3 and 0.5 microns, and countless descriptions of it described as filtering 99.977% OF 0.3 micron particles.....and sometimes both in the same article. I don't know what the standard really is, but the details aren't terribly important to me, because what I do know is that HEPA grade filters are extremely well respected for helping people out with dust sensitivities, allergies etc etc etc.
    There's a reason why doctors recommend that standard for helping conserve people's respiratory health, even before you have respiratory problems. They should be clearer about where they get the MERV rating....I expect it was evaluated at the same time as the particle fraction, but they don't say.

    I'm not sure what you mean by throw away, and I can't see that in documentation associated with the Oneida products. Are you inferring that because they can be damaged if abused in some way? Well I suppose an armored tank is throw away too if it gets abused enough. If by throw away you mean it is not repairable, then as far as I understand you're right. But I think you are suggesting that because HEPA filters are not cleanable, and Oneida says theirs are, then that must mean the Oneida filters are not HEPA? It's my understanding that in many applications users just don't bother to clean the filter (and the manufacturer would sell more if you don't), not that they are non-cleanable. I expect because of their very fine structure, they are sensitive, and they would prefer people not try to clean them and screw it up, but I've never understood them to be absolutely, categorically, without a question uncleanable. Oneida does give us some careful instructions for how to clean theirs, and sells an SP meter to show when cleaning is required......they also say that eventually you will have to replace it. Would an Oneida filter be killed by planer chips hitting it when your single stage gets overfilled? I don't know, but it's an excellent question I didn't think of.
    The weblink you introduced (Engineers Edge) was quite clear on both points you question:

    A second category also is comprised of single-use, disposable filters called HEPA filters. By definition, a HEPA filter is a throwaway, extended-medium, dry-type filter with: (1) a minimum particle removal efficiency of no less than 99.97 percent for 0.3-m particles, (2) a maximum resistance, when clean, of 1.0 inches water gauge (in.wg) when operated at 1,000 cfm, and (3) a rigid casing that extends the full depth of the medium [Note: Filters of different flows and resistances are allowable by the AG-1 Code. 2 A filter of identical construction and appearance, but having a filtering medium with a retention of 99.9995 percent for 0.1 m particles, is referred to as an ultra-low penetration aerosol filter (ULPA). The filtering medium of HEPA filters is thinner and more compressed, and contains smaller diameter fibers than HVAC filters. HEPA filters are widely used throughout industry.

    As I said before, HEPA is absolute. There is minimum. I have not come across one reference which gives a minimum of greater than .3 micron. Not one.

    As far as cleaning goes, I have no idea, I only read this from your original reference. If you posted a resource link without reading its contents, you shouldn't.


    Regarding certification, it does seem that GE is self evaluating here, and third party might be nice....however since these are made and evaluated in North America (in the litigation happy USA no less) I expect they would be stupid to produce a product that they claim to have tested to HEPA grades, but actually be something less. I expect the company lawyers for those companies that are doing it right would be all over them....but you never know.
    Hard to tell if GE is the manufacturer or the certifier. It isn't clear. Why the vagueness?

    SO......if you accept that these are really HEPA quality filters and Oneida/GE are not scamming us all, my main point is: at least you know these upgrade filters ARE actually to a known standard. If you want to see unknown, nebulous standards, try finding respectable spec sheets and certification certificates for the, made in China "ACME Dust Collector Company, super duper canister filter".....shudder.
    I do not accept the claim based on what I have read.H ad you presented an off shore option I would offer the same cautions. You are almost suggesting that the solution being discussed is better because it isn't as bad. I will hold Oneida to a higher standard.

    Is HEPA quality excessive for someone in their shop? Without a question, this is NOT for me to say. I may be convinced with research that HEPA quality is not required for me, but some known standard is required for me. If HEPA is overkill for me....I'm fine with that, but I agree with you wholeheartedly: the industry NEEDS to sharpen up and build to known standards. Companies can't import and sell a desk lamp without the cord being CSA certified.....I think the same concept should be applied to DC performance.
    My point remains that if all of your tools are puking dust past the collection point and into the air, your HEPA filter accomplishes nothing. The OSHA standard for workplace dust (not including western red cedar) exposure is 15mg/cu meter for all dust and 5mg/cu meter for the respirable fraction. NiOSH exposure limit is 1 mg/cu meter in a 10 hour day.
    Get a 1 cu meter bag, put 15 mg of normal shop dust in it a shake it up. That is how much dust you can have in a commercial workshop at any given time. So if you have that much dust not being captured by your cyclone, industry says you are at risk.
    You need to focus on trapping all of that dust first. Your cyclone, with a good .5 micron element, should catch the rest.
    It is no different than spewing all kinds of dust past your face, but feeling safe because you have an air cleaner 2 feet above hanging from the ceiling.

    'nuff said.

    Don

  12. #12
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    Default Re: HEPA upgrade for standard dust collectors

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Burch View Post
    I would hold the Oneida have a position of some prominence in this area and should go above and beyond to ensure the product description is beyond reproach.]

    Agree, this is why I said they should be clearer.


    [The weblink you introduced (Engineers Edge) was quite clear on both points you question:]

    You missed my point entirely. I had no problem finding sources that spoke authoratatively and with apparently good credentials (like the below), what I did have trouble finding is these sources consistantly saying the same thing!

    A second category also is comprised of single-use, disposable filters called HEPA filters. By definition, a HEPA filter is a throwaway, extended-medium, dry-type filter with: (1) a minimum particle removal efficiency of no less than 99.97 percent for 0.3-m particles, (2) a maximum resistance, when clean, of 1.0 inches water gauge (in.wg) when operated at 1,000 cfm, and (3) a rigid casing that extends the full depth of the medium [Note: Filters of different flows and resistances are allowable by the AG-1 Code. 2 A filter of identical construction and appearance, but having a filtering medium with a retention of 99.9995 percent for 0.1 m particles, is referred to as an ultra-low penetration aerosol filter (ULPA). The filtering medium of HEPA filters is thinner and more compressed, and contains smaller diameter fibers than HVAC filters. HEPA filters are widely used throughout industry.

    As I said before, HEPA is absolute. There is minimum. I have not come across one reference which gives a minimum of greater than .3 micron. Not one. Neither did I!

    If you look at my description of the confusion, I ALSO quoted the same minimum you did, so it appears you didn't realize we agree. My point was: some sources (not all referenced in my post) describe the standard as capturing 99.97% of all particles between 0.3 and 0.5, instead of 99.97% of 0.3 particles, and still again other sources saying 99.97% of particles greater than 0.3m. This can translate into very different capture rates of the 0.3m particles which are understood to be some of the most dangerous.

    As far as cleaning goes, I have no idea, I only read this from your original reference. If you posted a resource link without reading its contents, you shouldn't. If you're going to be a smart a$$, at least make sure you've thought it through, or you just make youself look bad. You brought up the cleaning subject, not me and seemed to draw grand (questionable) conclusions from their claims of cleanability. In fact there is no discussion of cleaning in the "original reference" link to the particular product referenced in the OP, so I'm not sure what you think I didn't read.

    Again, if you read my post, my struggle was never whether or not they were "throw away" in the sence that they were not repairable, but with the notion of equating "throw away" with "uncleanable". You also seemed to consider that since Oneida claimed they were cleanable, then that must mean they could not be HEPA and Oneida was full of crap. My question was not whether or not Oneida claimed they were cleanable (as an Oneida owner, I am fully aware that they do state that some of their HEPA filters are cleanable!) but whether or not your apparent insinuation that "throw away" equating to "uncleanable" is a valid jump.


    Hard to tell if GE is the manufacturer or the certifier. It isn't clear. Why the vagueness?



    I do not accept the claim based on what I have read.H ad you presented an off shore option I would offer the same cautions. You are almost suggesting that the solution being discussed is better because it isn't as bad. I will hold Oneida to a higher standard.

    I wouldn't hold your reticence against you, it's your perrogative, but I am saying that I am more comfortable with the documentation backing up Oneida's claims, than I am with the documentation backing up the any of the claims made by most other manufactureres or sellers of canister filters that I have looked into.......usually because there has been none available, and for other reasons stated as well! I would be really surprised in today's litigation happy world that they would make these claims so publically, without being legit. It's quite clear that I also feel there is room for improvement on Oneida's side. Their other product sheets refer to third party testing of their HEPA filters, but the documentation provided is pretty sparse, should be more professional looking and we shouldn't have to go asking for it. That being said, it is possable that Oneida has us all duped, and their filters are nothing more than recycled long john material stuffed into a fancy holder with a HEPA sticker thrown on the side.

    My point remains that if all of your tools are puking dust past the collection point and into the air, your HEPA filter accomplishes nothing. The OSHA standard for workplace dust (not including western red cedar) exposure is 15mg/cu meter for all dust and 5mg/cu meter for the respirable fraction. NiOSH exposure limit is 1 mg/cu meter in a 10 hour day.
    Get a 1 cu meter bag, put 15 mg of normal shop dust in it a shake it up. That is how much dust you can have in a commercial workshop at any given time. So if you have that much dust not being captured by your cyclone, industry says you are at risk.
    You need to focus on trapping all of that dust first. Your cyclone, with a good .5 micron element, should catch the rest.
    It is no different than spewing all kinds of dust past your face, but feeling safe because you have an air cleaner 2 feet above hanging from the ceiling.

    I agree......most of this goes without saying (except for your 0.5 micron limit, that's debatable) , but is beyond the scope of the original discussion around whether or not the Oneida product was a real HEPA filter or not.

    'nuff said.
    Don
    COMMENTS are in RED ABOVE
    Last edited by timberframe; 01-24-2012 at 03:54 PM. Reason: typo

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