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Thread: Editorial cartoon: Conrad Black

  1. #1
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    Default Editorial cartoon: Conrad Black

    Given the current uproar over the Grand Poohbahs' return to Canada, I thought this was a good one.


    cartoon.jpg
    He who laughs last..............probably didn't get it

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    I have yet to hear anybody in support of his Lordships return. Send him to GB, we don't want him here.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    meh.......

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Quote Originally Posted by red_langford View Post
    I have yet to hear anybody in support of his Lordships return. Send him to GB, we don't want him here.
    I agree. I can't imagine the Americans welcoming somebody back with open arms after they renounced their American citizenship to be some dork lord. Is Cdn citizenship something that you can take or leave however it suits your purpose? Perhaps yes, given all the people like the Hong Kongers who took out Cdn citizenship "just in case the takeover by China goes wrong" and then moved back to HK to see how it goes.

    Unfortunately, it appears that in the Ottawa area at least, the opinion is not totally one-sided. An informal CTV Ottawa news pole shows 61% for keeping him out and 39% for letting him back in.

    billh

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Two things:

    1st: He HAD to renounce his Canadian Citizenship....his family has been here for 5 generations, but he was also offered the lordship. He applied for dual citizenship, but he was maliciously denied by a certain someone who had a bone to pick (Jean Chretien)

    2nd: I'm hopefull that his return to Canada will result in him putting his considerable expertise into starting a new company (or more) that will result in jobs for Canadians.
    I dream of a better world, one where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Shervill View Post
    Two things:

    1st: He HAD to renounce his Canadian Citizenship....his family has been here for 5 generations, but he was also offered the lordship. He applied for dual citizenship, but he was maliciously denied by a certain someone who had a bone to pick (Jean Chretien)

    2nd: I'm hopefull that his return to Canada will result in him putting his considerable expertise into starting a new company (or more) that will result in jobs for Canadians.
    took the words out of my mouth.

    people get stuck on the fact that he renounced his citizenship, as if it was a case where he got up one morning and was all like "man, I just HATE that canada!!! What a useless waste of a nation!! I think I'll renounce them just out of spite!" or something like that!

    He was offered a very high British honour, and as a citizen of the common wealth he should have been freely allowed to accept it. Chretien's meddling in that affair was nothing but personal and partisan. Had Black been a liberal party supporter, the PMO would have never been anywhere near that situation. Black's response was, admittedly, a bad one, reminding me a bit of a "fine, I'll take my ball and go!" reaction, so I don't hold Black entirely blameless, but for certain he was baited and provoked by Chretien quite unfairly, and so in the end I won't hold it against black.

    The bottom line is this: if you have two people applying for entrance to canada, I want to know in 5 year's time which one will be mooching off of the system, and which one will have started up a company that is now giving jobs to other canadians and enabling them to work and earn a living. I want to let in that second kind, and I'm pretty sure that, whatever else Black is (i.e. a bit pompous) he's definitely the second kind of applicant.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    He also seems to have a propensity for taking that which isn't his to take, as well as ignoring court orders and video cameras.

    The best thing about him coming back is that it will yield some other fodder for the mills aside from Rob Ford......Rod.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    I don't think people should be malicious and judgmental. He is welcome in my Canada.
    -------
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    --Rick

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Oh yeah, create jobs. At 60 something he is not going to do nothing but spend his stolen money and leach off the health care system.

    Chretien's involvement in citizenship matters is kind of far fetched don't you think? I suppose it is possible, and likely he didn't like Black but I find it hard to believe the PM is calling up civil servants to tell them how to do their job.

    If you chose to renounce your citizenship for the sake of vanity, and yes it was nothing more than vanity, you don't deserve it back when things go awry. Let's not forget he is a convicted felon.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    I'm hopefull that his return to Canada will result in him putting his considerable expertise into starting a new company (or more) that will result in jobs for Canadians

    Oh goody, another potential pension plan to raid. Momma needs a new pair of shoes. For once I am actually cheering the US Revenue to get their share.
    He who laughs last..............probably didn't get it

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Yeah....those multi-millionaires coming here to milk public healthcare is becoming a problem ;)

    And for the record, there are all kinds of 60 yr old people running/starting/expanding successfull companies. In fact, I'd wager that many many fortune 500 companies have a whole lot of grey hair at the board meetings

    Even if he/his children dont start a new company, I'm just glad we are getting a new Canadian that can pay his own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by red_langford View Post
    Oh yeah, create jobs. At 60 something he is not going to do nothing but spend his stolen money and leach off the health care system.

    Chretien's involvement in citizenship matters is kind of far fetched don't you think? I suppose it is possible, and likely he didn't like Black but I find it hard to believe the PM is calling up civil servants to tell them how to do their job.

    If you chose to renounce your citizenship for the sake of vanity, and yes it was nothing more than vanity, you don't deserve it back when things go awry. Let's not forget he is a convicted felon.
    I dream of a better world, one where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    He also seems to have a propensity for taking that which isn't his to take, as well as ignoring court orders and video cameras.

    The best thing about him coming back is that it will yield some other fodder for the mills aside from Rob Ford......Rod.
    honestly though, if an american court sent you a letter ordering you, a canadian, in canada, what to do with your canadian papers in your canadian office, really, how much deference would you give that order? I don't deny he was being dishonest, but I'm still a little troubled about someone being prosecuted in america by an american court for something they did in canada that wasn't illegal under canadian laws. If other people didn't love to hate ol' black, I think they'd be more bothered by that too. My personal opinion, some people focus on the fact that he probably did do some shady business and so he probably did deserve some punishment, so they agree with the end, but they agree with that end so much that they don't notice that the means by which that end was reached were really very questionable.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    He not a Canadian, he is a criminal, and his criminal record should mean that he should not be allowed entry.

    We weere well rid of him and, now it appears that somehow if is going to be allowed back.

    I am ashamed in whatever "powers that be" that have decided to allow this guy into Canada.
    Cheers,
    Frank

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    In between innings of the ball game but a quick comment and a rhetorical question.

    There has always been a number of perks to being rich and famous, thats just the way its always been. And the question, right now, would you trust this man with your life savings, or your pension funds? Back to the game.

    PS Still a good cartoon.
    He who laughs last..............probably didn't get it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pellow View Post
    He not a Canadian, he is a criminal, and his criminal record should mean that he should not be allowed entry.

    We were well rid of him and, now it appears that somehow if is going to be allowed back.

    I am ashamed in whatever "powers that be" that have decided to allow this guy into Canada.
    There are a lot of similar feelings I guess so I just picked this one from the group...

    Yes he is now a criminal and a convict and he was charged under this law:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honest_services_fraud

    As I recall the US Attorney's office decided to interpret the law such that if other shareholders felt that you "did not do an honest day's work" for your pay -- you were a criminal. The catch was -- Who was to decide what was honest services?" ???? (Sort of like "Who watches the watcher?" -- if you think about it...)
    Honest services fraud refers to a 28-word sentence of 18 U.S.C. § 1346 (the federal mail and wire fraud statute), added by the United States Congress in 1988,[1] which states: "For the purposes of this chapter, the term, scheme or artifice to defraud includes a scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services."[2]

    The statute has been applied by federal prosecutors in cases of public corruption as well as in cases in which private individuals breached a fiduciary duty to another. In the former, the courts notably have been divided on the question of whether a state law violation is necessary for honest services fraud to have occurred. In the latter, the courts notably have taken differing approaches to determining whether a private individual has committed honest services fraud – a test based on reasonably foreseeable economic harm and a test based on materiality. The statute, which has been a target of criticism, was given a narrow construction by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Skilling v. United States. In order to avoid finding the statute to be unconstitutionally vague, the Court interpreted the statute to only cover "fraudulent schemes to deprive another of honest services through bribes or kickbacks supplied by a third party who ha[s] not been deceived."[3]
    Luckily for the US Att. he also decided to remove materials from his office and they got him on "obstruction of justice". Later when they realized the [honest services] law was very broad [and could be construed to apply to almost anything] and completely open to interpretation, he won "on appeal". ...but they still got him on obstruction of justice...


    As for "who owns the money in a company?" -- that depends on controlling interest...


    See here:
    http://businesscasestudies.co.uk/bus...d-control.html


    Like everything else, "controlling interest" and minority shareholder rights wax and wane in popularity and recognition...
    The owner of a business is the person who owns the business - i.e. has put the financial capital into the business and takes out the profit. The controller of the business is the person that makes the management decisions. We can illustrate ownership and control in the following diagram:

    [ See the link for the chart]

    You can see that as a businesses structure becomes larger there is a tendency for the control of the organisation to become more widely spread between the owners and those that run the business on a day-to-day basis. This has been a particular issue in recent years where shareholders in a number of companies are less happy about the way businesses are being run on their behalf. Recent issues have involved directors pay and the ethical practices of some businesses. When directors pay themselves large sums while results of a company are not very impressive then shareholders are likely to take issue at the AGM and can vote out directors, if this is part of the constitution of a company. Shareholders will also try to influence the ethical practice of the businesses that they own.

    The bottom line was that since he had the controlling interest -- he could do pretty much what he wanted -- just like any other corporation. Where someone succeeded was in convincing the US Attorney's office that fraud was involved. Maybe it was -- maybe it wasn't.

    At one time I was asked to consult to the Hollinger Group -- for some reason I declined -- I can't recall all the circumstances -- but it was certainly not a concern about Conrad Black. But otherwise I have not done business with the company.

    As for Conrad Black being allowed back, well worse will shortly be coming back.

    Last edited by willr; 05-04-2012 at 11:10 PM.
    ---
    Will

    “There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.” —- Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenL View Post
    In between innings of the ball game but a quick comment and a rhetorical question.

    There has always been a number of perks to being rich and famous, thats just the way its always been. And the question, right now, would you trust this man with your life savings, or your pension funds? Back to the game.

    PS Still a good cartoon.
    Absolutely!

    And I'm dead serious....he's more than demonstrated his prowness with money.

    (hint: if your financial investor/advisor does not own several multi-million dollar properties and have 8 figures in the bank, chances are that he *may* not be as good with money as someone who does...it's kinda like those "psychics" that give you the lottery numbers for a fee. Think about that ;) )
    I dream of a better world, one where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Shervill View Post
    Absolutely!

    And I'm dead serious....he's more than demonstrated his prowess with money.

    (hint: if your financial investor/advisor does not own several multi-million dollar properties and have 8 figures in the bank, chances are that he *may* not be as good with money as someone who does...it's kinda like those "psychics" that give you the lottery numbers for a fee. Think about that ;) )
    I'm going with Ryan on this one.

    I have recently had the opportunity to assist someone who had expert financial advice from one of Canada's largest bank on their pension funds. They had a personal account manager and a personal financial adviser. What was the result? They should be able to get back to where they were five years ago by only paying out an amount additional to what they lost already -- and it was substantial to them. Whether it was stupidity or fraud I don't know. What I am 90% certain of (but cannot prove) is great stupidity and petty fraud to to drive their own sales figures.

    When they took the bank's advice I told them where they would end up -- that's what happened. I finally went into the bank on the last visit and sat there and explained to the PFA what the person needed done -- then I left. Apparently everything I requested to be done was checked after I left and the adviser conceded the errors were made by themselves (and that I had been right all along) -- but the money is gone -- and the five years were wasted -- and now the rebuilding means working well past retirement age.

    So be careful where you put your trust and do your homework.

    Give me a Lord Conrad Black any old day -- I at least know where he is coming from.
    ---
    Will

    “There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.” —- Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pellow View Post
    He not a Canadian, he is a criminal, and his criminal record should mean that he should not be allowed entry.

    We weere well rid of him and, now it appears that somehow if is going to be allowed back.

    I am ashamed in whatever "powers that be" that have decided to allow this guy into Canada.

    I think you might misunderstand how the process works then.

    The simple fact is that being a convicted felon does not disqualify you from gaining re-entry.

    That has always been the case, and has been the case for a great many people prior to conrad black.

    note these statistics reported today in the globe and mail:

    The department granted 11,526 temporary resident permits in 2011, including 6,541 for applicants with criminal records. Of these, 907 were considered serious criminals convicted of wrongdoings that would be an indictable offence in Canada.
    More than 50% of the people granted re-entry last year already had a criminal record.

    Black is therefore, imo, not a special case.

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    I guess it depends on the pension fund. Didn't he on a legal technicality rob the pension fund of Dominion stores when he briefly owned it? His modus operandi has usually been to acquire successful companies, merge them, then "rationalize" them by firing as many employees as possible before bailing out with a fat personal profit. Hardly job creation. I suppose you could make a buck or two by following his exploits if you didn't mind hanging on the coattails of a leech. As with Pocklington, the child was father of the man. One began in "business" by stealing and selling his father's car. One was expelled from a posh private school for dishonesty. Oh, Canada.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Editorial cartoon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Shervill View Post
    Absolutely!

    And I'm dead serious....he's more than demonstrated his prowness with money.
    He's not the only criminal who demonstrated their prowess with money.
    In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion

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