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Thread: Process questions

  1. #1
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    Default Process questions

    Wanted to throw out something here to see if it makes sense or not among the more experienced woodworkers.
    I purchased the Adirondack chair plans from LV as I want to make a couple for the lake. Now I expect that I will be making more than one or two at some point so I figured I would make templates of the parts using 1/4 hardboard. I glued the entire plan on a 4x4 sheet of board, then cut them out on the BS. My thinking on this was that I would have patterns that would last longer than paper alone, and that I could rough cut the parts out of cedar, then screw the hardboard templates on and trim on the router table with a flush cut bit with hopes of eliminating as much sanding as I can. (I hate sanding). For the most part the routered pieces are smooth except for some of the opposite grain sections

    Found two problems with this plan so far:

    1. It appears as though my BS blade might be dull as I seem to have had a bit of a rough finish on the hardboard. Enough so that the bearing would reproduce the surface ever so slightly. I then lighty sanded (ugh) that hardboard so that it would be smooth.
    Lesson learned - a flush cut bit will reproduce even the smallest ridges so get a new BS blade to see if that makes cuts smoother.

    2. while executing the router flush trim plan I encountered a slightly scary scenario that basically tore the half of the piece from the part I was holding. Granted, I was on the end grain portion however I am only taking 1/6 at most from the parts and I had done a few already, so this was a bit suprising.
    I am using the posts incorporated into the table to brace the work, and I am feeding the material correctly.

    Can I assume that the trim bit is just dull and subsequently scrap metal (not sure if they can be sharpened and still be used for flush cut being undersized to the bearing). It is cedar and I don't expect that this would happen with hardwood but it's a bit of a scary event when half of the part goes flying; but at least the finger count was positive.

    Am I complicating this more than I have to and maybe just cut them all out on the BS with a new blade, then sand? Does this mean I need another tool!

    Thoughts would be appreciated!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Im no huge producer of muskoka or adriondak chairs, but i've made about 50+ in my few years.
    I know exactly where your coming from with the flush trim idea and yeah it sounds like you have the process right. What I've learned in my experience is as follows.

    You will always have to sand off bandsaw marks no matter how new your blade, so cut your templates and parts with this in mind. When making templates from paper cut as close as possible and sand using spindle sander, edge sander and disc sander if available.

    I also went the flush trim idea with a few chairs but ended up deciding I like cutting the parts on the band as accurate as possible then sanding. I trace the templates with a easy to see pen and try to cut it out so I have a very fine pen mark left, then clean up the edges by sanding.

    I find the band saw rout generally less stressful and much safer. But if you want to go with this method use a flush trim bit with s sheer cut. This is a similar bit that I use when doing flush trimming. I found this bit in a set for around $80.

    Be safe and have fun, there's many methods to every end find what works for you.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Thanks shrlok, i can see how that bit would be a less aggressive cutter, especially on the end grains. So it seems to me that I can buy a bit for one purpose, or I buy a spindle combo sander for well over twice the price and use if for a bunch of things. The edge routing did seem as scary as any tool I have ever used but the lure is the nice finish it leaves on most of the parts.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Process questions

    I had the ridgid belt/spindle sander, which I used for many years and it was a big help, and it's a pretty cheap too, they seem to come up used on kijiji or here.

  5. #5
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    Vancouver BC
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    Default Re: Process questions

    "Does this mean I need another tool! "

    yes you need another tool ;-)

    I have a 6 inch rigid random orbital sander. I love that it hooks up to my rigid vac and really does cure the dust issue. the paper for it is really crazy expensive though.
    others may chime in but to anser your question , yes you need more tools ! don't we all ?
    “The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” -Bertrand Russell

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by phil View Post
    "Does this mean I need another tool! "

    yes you need another tool ;-)

    I have a 6 inch rigid random orbital sander. I love that it hooks up to my rigid vac and really does cure the dust issue. the paper for it is really crazy expensive though.
    others may chime in but to anser your question , yes you need more tools ! don't we all ?
    Thanks Phil, I don't really need excuses to buy new tools, but they help!!! I have a Dewalt orbital palm sander but it's drawback is the dust as the darn cup attachment is near useless. I am looking at a Rigid spindle/belt oscillating combo and it seems to have a lot of good reviews but I can get a King KC-760l for less than a hundred bucks more and it seems like a lot more sander.
    Last edited by johansmyth; 07-12-2012 at 11:02 AM.

  7. #7
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    Mike

    Default Re: Process questions

    I got a set of plans for Norm Abrams Ad. Chair from a member here. I expanded it out from the scale and put each piece on 1/2 inch MDF as a template. I did a lot of sanding to get all the bumps and crevices out. I've made 10 chairs out of white cedar so far for friends. I use the template to mark the piece. Then band saw it an 1/8 inch oversize and finish it off on router table. No sanding required. It sure simplifies the process.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Process questions

    I don't think your trim bit is necessarily dull or scrap. If you use a flush trim bit uphill or against the grain it will be grabby and sometimes split the wood along the grain. You always want to try and go downhill if possible.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by jaywood1207 View Post
    I don't think your trim bit is necessarily dull or scrap. If you use a flush trim bit uphill or against the grain it will be grabby and sometimes split the wood along the grain. You always want to try and go downhill if possible.
    I put my new router in the table, the Triton, and a new bit and it was a bit better but still chipped out in a couple of places. I assume that by uphill you mean the direction of the feed?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by johansmyth View Post
    I put my new router in the table, the Triton, and a new bit and it was a bit better but still chipped out in a couple of places. I assume that by uphill you mean the direction of the feed?
    In the picture I have attached the black line indicates the shape of your board, the blue lines show the grain, the blue circle is your router bit, and the red arrows indicate the rotation of your router bit. I have made the assumption with this that you have a table mounted router with a flush trim bit with the bearing on the bottom of the bit which means in my drawing you need the pattern on the top of your board you are routing. If you look at the bit that says OK you are peeling off the wood with the grain which I was referring to as downhill. The bit shown that is Bad is peeling off wood against the grain (uphill) which is more likely to grab and rip your wood right down the grain lines if you have straight grain wood. Hopefully that makes sense.Router.jpg

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by jaywood1207 View Post
    In the picture I have attached the black line indicates the shape of your board, the blue lines show the grain, the blue circle is your router bit, and the red arrows indicate the rotation of your router bit. I have made the assumption with this that you have a table mounted router with a flush trim bit with the bearing on the bottom of the bit which means in my drawing you need the pattern on the top of your board you are routing. If you look at the bit that says OK you are peeling off the wood with the grain which I was referring to as downhill. The bit shown that is Bad is peeling off wood against the grain (uphill) which is more likely to grab and rip your wood right down the grain lines if you have straight grain wood. Hopefully that makes sense.Router.jpg
    That makes sense, and I expect that is exactly what's happening but at the risk of sounding like a moron, how do I trim the uphill sides? I have the pattern screwed to one side and it's either down for the bottom bearing bit, or up for the second one that has the bearing on top. I tried it because it was 1/2" and thinking it was sharper.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by johansmyth View Post
    That makes sense, and I expect that is exactly what's happening but at the risk of sounding like a moron, how do I trim the uphill sides? I have the pattern screwed to one side and it's either down for the bottom bearing bit, or up for the second one that has the bearing on top. I tried it because it was 1/2" and thinking it was sharper.
    I am by no means an expert and there may be other ideas out there. My suggestion which becomes a PITA is to put a flush trim bit with the bearing on the bottom of the bit and then flip your piece over to do (in my diagram) from the point down the right side. This would cut downhill but it means a bit change part way through. You might be better off to go with the suggestions above and cut with the bandsaw then sand smooth.

  13. #13
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    Dennis

    Default Re: Process questions

    A plane and spokeshave will eliminate sanding and routing.

  14. #14
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    Mike Delyster

    Default Re: Process questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dwoody View Post
    A plane and spokeshave will eliminate sanding and routing.
    True, but you will still need to pay attention to grain direction.
    Mike @ Buck Lake

  15. #15
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    Steve Morris

    Default Re: Process questions

    ive made dozens of the LV chairs and have a full set of templates and tapering jigs for all the pieces.

    most of the templates are 5/8 material, just a mixture of particleboard and plywood

    i just screw the template to the backside of the workpiece, bandsaw really close(1/8 or so) then trim. screwing to the back avoids screw holes where i dont want them. so im careful to cut left and rights for pieces like the arms and legs

    i used the dual bearing pattern cutting bit from LV, either using the lower bearing or upperbearing(in a router table) with a extra layer of plywood on the table when using the upper bearing to allow the pattern to "reach" the upper bearing. so no router height adjustments are needed.

    my next sets will be cut out on my homecraft shaper with a byrd head, same steps

    so basically route whats downhill using the lower bearing, add my extra layer of ply to my table to reach the upper bearing, turn the workpiece/template over and finish the routing, very quick, very little sanding required

    i use 5/4 cedar for all the parts except the seat and back slats, there i use cedar fence boards. the 5/4 stuff is a hair over 1 inch and the fence boards are around 5/8. i joint and plane the material first, not really necessary but does make a nicer finished product. two chairs require 6 8ft deck boards(5/4 by 6) and 8 6ft fench boards

    the arms require an extra 1 1/2 or so added to an edge for the full width if using deck boards

    i made a couple of changes to the plans that simplify assembly, the biggie is extending the seat support pieces to meet the back support, if you look at the plan, you'll see a space between those two pieces where they attach to the long leg part, i filled that gap with a longer seat support(about 7/8 longer and a matching angle cut)
    Last edited by stevem; 07-13-2012 at 05:25 AM.
    my shop is a beaver lodge
    steve, sarnia, ont

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Thanks Steve, this is definately a well executed plan for making these chairs and it makes sense now. I am not sure I will be making that many of them but as far as I am concerned if you are making more than 2 of anything you should look for time savings, which for hobby woodworkers is at a premium it seems. I had no idea there was even a double bearing bit.

    Can I borrow your tapering jigs? ;-)

    Thanks to everyone who responded, it really is helpful to get other opinions!
    Last edited by johansmyth; 07-13-2012 at 08:45 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Process questions

    i use the double bearing bit from leevalley, its done maybe a dozen pairs and still cuts nicely even on the endgrain cuts for the arms

    sure you can borrow my patternset, but its a long way from sarnia to brockville!! the set does every shaped and tapered part except the back slats although i do have a taper jig for the back slats, i mark and cut the curve for the back freehand. it takes about 6 hours to cut and shape then roundover parts for 2 chairs. i also have a jig to hold the long leg, front leg and back support all at once, saves a lot of juggling of parts and ensures both sides of the chair are identical but mirror images

    here's a link to the double bearing cutter, i use the 1/2 inch

    http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...435,46171&ap=1
    my shop is a beaver lodge
    steve, sarnia, ont

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Process questions

    Thanks Steve. I hadn't seen that bit before. Good tip.

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