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Thread: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

  1. #1
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    Mark Rose

    Default Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    I thought I would post this machine if you have deep pockets 3g's and looking for a pattern makers saw. (not me ) I would be intrested to know what our resident experts have to say about it.
    http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...AdIdZ384092924
    Last edited by Mark in Burlington; 07-26-2012 at 03:21 PM.
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Rumour has it that that particular Robinson saw could be the one thing that trumps the Wadkin PK....

    That exact saw has been for sale for quite some time now, and I know of at least one member here that has viewed it in person. It is a perfect example, (and one that I considered) of what I was talking about in my PK thread about sellers of old english iron and the astromonical prices they sometimes place on their equipment.

    In reality, although that Robinson is a tank and the only example I've seen of one since I started paying attention to such things, it's simply not worth 3k.

    I could post some detailed pics of that saw, but will wait for the member I was talking about to post them. I don't want him (or her ) to have to deal with undue compedition.

    IMO, the one thing it has lacking is the lines of the PK. The Robinson ETE has a very boxy industrial look to it.

    edit:
    I just checked the listing again... They're still asking for that ridiculous $500 deposit to hold the saw...lol. At this point they should be offering to lower the price $500 just for talking to them about it.

    I believe it has a 7hp motor as well
    Last edited by J. Vibert; 07-26-2012 at 03:46 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Here's the only other mention of this saw I've seen...:

    http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind....aspx?id=12318

    Owned the infamous Arthur Fuege

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Vibert View Post
    Here's the only other mention of this saw I've seen...:

    http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind....aspx?id=12318

    Owned the infamous Arthur Fuege
    Jarrett, I thought I recognized the saw from before. I could see that kind of money if it has been cleaned up to the 9s but it as found condition.
    Kind of crazy the $500 deposit thing... does it have to go in an off shore bank account to.
    I wonder what "fair" price would be at the high end. He is going to be fishing in the pond a long time to find his buyer.
    Cheers, Mark
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Well the seller is stuck hoping for a collector with deep pockets and a lack of patience for a better deal. A shop isn't going to buy this saw, and put it in production.

    This Robinson is no different than any other 50+ yr old piece of equipment. Even worse even as it's a 3ph 600v machine. $3k is completely far fetched imo. The seller should have jumped at the offer I know he got. My high end price is less than 30% of asking, but then again I'm not in the market anymore.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Vibert View Post
    This Robinson is no different than any other 50+ yr old piece of equipment. Even worse even as it's a 3ph 600v machine. $3k is completely far fetched imo. The seller should have jumped at the offer I know he got. My high end price is less than 30% of asking, but then again I'm not in the market anymore.
    I am sorry J but you are simply wrong.
    Robinson has always been better than wadkin in built and fit. Robinson were very innovative. it was not until the 1920 when all the drafts man at Robinson jumped ship to joint Wadkin.

    Mark


    On the ET/E, the handles are small, but I don't know why. Its' predecessors, the ZT/E and ZS/E also had quite small handwheels. The ET/E came in in the early 1950s (it is in the 1953 catalogue, but the ZT/E is in the 1949 catalogue) and was certainly made right to the end (it is also listed in the 1975 catalogue on Vintage Machinery). These machines were always integrated electric motor drive. One nice feature (for the time, very advanced) is the mechanical blade brake which is hand or knee operated. I recall being told by one owner that these use a Bowden cable which is subject to stretching if used too often! While not as cute as the PK this is a serious saw that is spoken for. I believe its a late 1970s saw by the look of the tags, and would have retailed for $14000. so you see not like any 50 year old saw.

    jack
    English machines
    Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 07-26-2012 at 08:37 PM. Reason: what do you think

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
    I am sorry J but you are simply wrong.

    I believe its a late 1970s saw by the look of the tags, and would have retailed fort $14000. so you see not like any 50 year old saw.

    jack
    English machines
    I really don't think I am Jack... The fact remains that this saw is an antique, regardless of how innovative and costly it was when new. My point was, this saw is not worth the asking, and is overpriced by the seller just like any quality saw of this era potentially is. If my opinion isn't proof enough, (which I don't assume it is) let's wait another few months and see if it's sold.

    I'm willing to bet it won't be.... Not for that asking anyway.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Jack, Thanks for the Robinson run down. You have me semi convinced there.
    I have a cunning scheme to present to my wife, buy it and charge WWers $50 a day for the privilige to use it. I would then have it paid off in a few months. But then I have to find room for it or build an extension.
    Cheers, Mark
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Mark
    not the saw for everyone.A kick back from this saw could kill all hopes of ever expanding your family. Its in a old boat shop that went from wood to glass. the owner got it new and so he thinks its worth what he has posted it for. As to what a machine is worth "money" has very little to do with it . What someone will pay for a saw is not what it is worth IMHO, Just look at what a POS unisaw will fetch. A machine value is in its completeness and build and condition. Its worth is in its usefulness to the person buying it. who ever buys the saw will be well rewarded. A man can go broke trying to save a buck. just saying

    jack
    English machines

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    HaHa.... so the "saw" is out of the bag Eh Jack!..... Guys, I've been all over this thing for about 1.5 months. They aren't budging on the price.... they won't entertain offers on it less than $3000 until they move their second plant ( and another newer table saw ) over to their current expanded facility.... which is about another 2-3 months away.

    If you guys want to know, I looked at it a while ago and it's pretty sweet. Real dusty and I think the green is a repaint. The blade has hit the fence a few times and it's a little messy there. Big power feeder, trenching head, mitre gauge, and 3 16" blades too. The brake on the motor is sweet.... when you pull the lever for off, the cable attached brakes the motor. Ran very smoothly. It has likely seen a lot of light duty use.... ripping plywood for boat hulls, hardly what I would consider working a 7.5hp motor.

    Anyways, I offered $1200 about a month ago and they weren't interested.... and gave me the response I mentioned earlier. I am currently working on a plan "B" to aquire the saw for cheap.... this will include using my rigging expertise ( I'm an ironworker - I work full time for a machinery moving/millwright company ) to help move a 40' CNC from their second plant to their new expanded facility.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/1113654...lidingTableSaw#

    We will see. Not as pretty as a PK, but still very hardcore and it's nice to be different ... I'm really not that hung up on the saw, if anyone has deep pockets, don't let me stop you buying it!

    Dave

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
    What someone will pay for a saw is not what it is worth IMHO, Just look at what a POS unisaw will fetch.

    jack
    English machines
    I was going to disagree again Jack, but it's hard to argue with the Unisaw example....

    You win.... this time

    Dave: Keep working on them buddy. Everyone knows they're not getting 3k for that machine. They just haven't admitted to themselves yet.

    Jarrett

  12. #12

    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    I was not tiring to pic on you J it is just that i do not what new people coming to this forum thinking that we buy theses machine because they are cheep money wise. I see no shame in paying 3000 for that saw. You are correct that it will not sale for 3000 but the owner may just keep it than as he has a business that it is used in. Talking about a machine worth in the other respects(condition ,cool factor, rareness and usefulness)is muck more useful to someone in the market. There going to get that they cost less with out saying so. I hope you understand my point.

    BTW did you see the slider under body on that saw that travels 47" and has a traverse stop on the side.


    jack
    English machines

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Thanks Dave for linking to the additional pictures. I hope down the road in a few months you can work out a deal with the seller.
    It looks like a hell nice of a saw.
    Cheers, Mark
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    No worries Jack. I wasn't thinking that at all...

    It's really two separate conversations. Speaking as a buyer we all use every angle we can to get the best deal we can. When speaking as an admirer of vintage machinery the relative value or better said worth of machine is completely different.

    I also don't want first time lurkers thinking that vintage equipment is all about getting tools cheaply. However that isn't going to change my opinion on what I'd pay for something. My PK is a perfect example.... Do I think it's worth more than $1k...?..., hell ya. Would I pay that much as it stood...?..., nope.

    Jarrett
    Last edited by J. Vibert; 07-27-2012 at 01:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Two months ago I bought one of these saws on ebay UK. I love it. I sold my Martin T-17 to get enough room for it. I wanted the benefit of a sliding table - a tough decision because in some ways the T-17 was more versatile and the level of quality is outstanding. But I traded the "Mercedes" for a "Rolls-Royce"..;-)
    With it came also the original manual, the original cast iron spanner and a brochure describing itīs merits.
    Btw the small hand wheels run like butter - so no need for large ones..

    Greetings from a danish cabinetmaker obsessed with cast iron machinery:-)

    /Kenneth

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Greetings Kenneth, and welcome to the forum....

    When you bought your ETE, was there much work needed to clean it up...? I have yet to really dig into my PK project but almost blew a nut taking the slider off to inspect some things. The Robinson being that much larger I bet almost demands a full blown shop with overhead hoist to dismantle.

    Jarrett

  17. #17

    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by KKNees View Post
    Two months ago I bought one of these saws on ebay UK. I love it. I sold my Martin T-17 to get enough room for it. I wanted the benefit of a sliding table - a tough decision because in some ways the T-17 was more versatile and the level of quality is outstanding. But I traded the "Mercedes" for a "Rolls-Royce"..;-)
    With it came also the original manual, the original cast iron spanner and a brochure describing itīs merits.
    Btw the small hand wheels run like butter - so no need for large ones..

    Greetings from a danish cabinetmaker obsessed with cast iron machinery:-)

    /Kenneth
    Kenneth

    We had a T-17 in the old shop i used to work for. great saw.

    I found that martin table saws take very little getting used to. Its the other way around! Once you start using martins, you will not be inclined to return to anything else. Even this cast iron Robinson beastie is still outperforming anything out there today with the exception of the Martin T-73. But the T-73 is a panel saw and not a hardwood slider. That long sliding table is a bit more akward to use than the one on the T-17.

    The T-17 was the last of the hardwood format saws made by martin. Since then, they have introduced a number of panel saws . I actually enjoy avoiding plywood and so the hardwood slider format is more my cup of tea. But the full panel Martins are an ideal machine for cranking out sheet good based articles.
    One thing is the Robinson got more power, not much more but more.

    jack
    English machine

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
    I actually enjoy avoiding plywood

    jack
    English machine
    Quote of the day Jack....lol

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Jarrett

    I needed the saw running almost from day one, so i decided to wait with taking it completely apart. This can wait because the saw is in excellent mechanical condition.
    Apparantly it has been used at a technical college, where it has had service on a regular basis. It was very dirty though, because it had been stored for some time with some kind of oil over it to preserve it. I have cleaned the table top and polished the ruler in it (a metric one of inferior quality compared to the rest of the saw, so I think it might had been added later), the fences and the blade guard (here I plan to make a new insert to allow some good dust collection, and keep the original one without scarring it, like you see so often with the older type of guards, which were only meant to protect). My workshop here at home is 3,6x7,2m, so I would have room enough to dismantle it completely. when the day comes, I plan to lift the saw with my pallet lifter, place my timber saw horses just under the protruding parts of the top, loosen the bolts, lower the main frame with the motor and pull it out under the top.

    Jack

    I know exactly what you mean. Martin makes things easier - it spoils you.. During the first three years of my apprenticeship we were in an old shop with old cast iron machinery. Here every machine had itīs own "personality". If you did not get to know them properly, you simply could not get any good results. In my last year we moved to an entirely new workshop with Martin table saw, spindle moulder, planer and thicknesser - all of it with digital readout, motorized fences and all. Still, Iīm incredibly thankful for having gained the experience during those first three years. In my second job as a teacher in cabinetmaking, we have a Martin t72, the predecessor of the t73. A wonderful machine too. I use this after hours for cutting mdf and Plywood;-)

    The T-17 I had was made in 77, so it must have been one of the last ones made. As far as power is concerned, this one came with the optional 10hp motor. Had it been the standard 6,3hp then you would have been right in saying, that the ET/E was marginally more powerful with itīs 7,5hp. Do you know if this Brooks motor developed for the ET/E is the same, as the one Wadkin decided to use for the PP?

    /Kenneth

  20. #20

    Default Re: Robinson Pattern Makers Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by KKNees View Post
    Do you know if this Brooks motor developed for the ET/E is the same, as the one Wadkin decided to use for the PP?

    /Kenneth
    The Wadkin PP had BTH = British Thompson Houston motors part of the old GEC-AEI empire. BTH motors were latterly made at Brook Motors or Brook-Crompton in Huddersfield and now called Brook-Hansen , they're from your home land I believe. The PP came belted or DMD(direct motor drive) 5.5 DOC(depth of cut) with the belted version.So I take it you are talking about the special motors in the DMD.

    Not all Wadkin machines were built in the same factory as Wadkin owned, at various times, factories in Leicester (head office), Trawden near Colne (Bursgreen routers), near Scarborough (Bursgreen, fabricated bandsaws), Houghton-le-Spring (main Bursgreen site) and Sowerby Bridge near Halifax (Ryburn/Ryburn-Fell makers of Pickles stair trenchers and Fell auto lathes) as well as having machines made by third party companies such as the Royal Ordnance Factory in Nottingham (mainly cast-iron bandsdaws), Dominion in Halifax (single end tenoners, and I recall someone telling me ECAs were being built there in the 1980s) and I believe that some machines were also made by Sagar in Halifax for a few years in the late 1950s and Cooksley in Kingston-on-Thames as well. The company also imported and handled a number of machines from abroad, notably the ill-fated Wadkin Agencies machines of the 1970s and 1980s, more succesful agencies such as Weinig and "badge engineered" machinery such as the current range of imported Robinson moulders.


    Wadkin table dimension saw 18" pp 450


























    I have a a few British kit that is old and heavy my two Favorite things
    I love the old UK ARN and use it every day like today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwLp_4B45xM&feature=plcp

    jack
    English machines
    Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 08-17-2012 at 11:22 PM.

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