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Thread: 600volt rotary phase converter

  1. #41
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
    wow
    what code is that ? never heard of that one.

    jack
    English machines
    2-106 Circuit voltage-to-ground – Dwelling unitsBranch circuits in dwelling units shall not have a voltage exceeding 150 volts-to-ground except that, where the calculated load on the service conductors of an apartment or similar building exceeds 250 kV•A and where qualified electrical maintenance personnel are available, higher voltages not exceeding the voltage-to-ground of a nominal system voltage of 347/600Y shall be permitted to be used in the dwelling unit to supply the following fixed (not portable) equipment:
    (a) space heating, provided that wall-mounted thermostats operate at a voltage not exceeding 300 volts-to-ground;
    (b) water heating; and
    (c) air conditioning.
    Regards, Rod

  2. #42

    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    thanks Rod

    Talks lots on lighting and the delling but does let 347/600 in out building or for HVLC. Is this part 1 CEC?

    jack
    English machines

  3. #43
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    Dave

    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Ok thanks Rod. Does any body have a 15-20hp 240 3ph motor that they would like to sell cheap and ship on Ontario Northland?

    Dave

  4. #44
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Does branch circuit apply to appliances plugged into a receptacle? Quite a few electronic items run high voltages, I know several of my fencers are over 10,000 volts, one is 15,000 on regular 120v plugs with CSA approval. My large shop lights are single phase 240v that step up to 575v, 1000watt bulb.
    I had always understood that the code only applied to building wiring not what you plug into a receptacle.
    Rob

  5. #45
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by iamtooler View Post
    I had always understood that the code only applied to building wiring not what you plug into a receptacle.
    Rob
    We're talking voltage to ground Rob... If you device steps up voltage for a certain function it's fine. However it's still running on a recepticle that has a potential to ground of only 120v, (in the case of your fencers).

  6. #46
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Vibert View Post
    We're talking voltage to ground Rob... If you device steps up voltage for a certain function it's fine. However it's still running on a recepticle that has a potential to ground of only 120v, (in the case of your fencers).
    So am I Jarrett, the spark will jump a good half inch to ground.Incidently the fencer's housing is grounded to the utility's ground and bonded to the ''ground'' outlet that is driven in near the fence. I some areas it is difficult to find a good ground, fences run for miles, so a ground wire is strung along and the animal has to touch both to get zapped. On my soil it is not an issue and I can hear a cow's nose getting snapped from a hundred paces.
    Rob

  7. #47
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Yes Jack, CEC.............I don't have an Ontario code as we use the Federal code at our facilities............Rod.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Could I use a static phase converter then a step up transformer to run the 10 hp, 3ph, 600 volt, 3500rpm as an idler or the motor for the sawmill.

    Dave

  9. #49
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by staker View Post
    Could I use a static phase converter then a step up transformer to run the 10 hp, 3ph, 600 volt, 3500rpm as an idler or the motor for the sawmill.

    Dave
    Hi, I believe the idler motor has to be part of the converter, so it would need to be at 208 volts, then fed through the step up transformer.

    Since you're using this at home, and won't be allowed to have a 600 volt system, why don't you use a 208 volt motor for your sawmill?

    That's what I did with my band saw mill...........Rod.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    If I could find the 240 volt 3phase motors here I would go that route but unfortunally there arenot, and I would have to buy new and thats not in the budget. Maybe a desiel generator.

    Dave

  11. #51
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    I get used 3 phase motors from HVAC dealers when they scrap equipment.

    Perhaps scrap yards have them also?

    Regards, Rod.

    Maybe you could find a 5 HP single phase motor?

    My mill ran fine with a 3 HP motor..........Rod.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 02-11-2013 at 06:26 PM.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    I would like 3phase so I could have some speed control,and wire size , a 5hp with a vfd maybe .

    Dave

  13. #53

    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    I am not saying that Rod is not with it with the Electrical code and the ground voltage reading but there are a lots of home shops(me included) running 240 volt RPC with steep up transformers. Some guys are just using a pull rope and single phasing a 3 phase motor for dirty power 3 phase(not start Caps or run caps to balance the wild leg) and running 3 phase machines. larger motors 2 to 3 times the size of the motor you are running are needed to make dirty power from single phase this way.
    The point is motors are stupid and if you don't tell them what your feeding them or get to deep in the theory of how things work
    its just amassing what they will run on.


    Even if you get a 2O8 volt system from a place like American rotary you will still need a buck/bust transformer ahead of the idler. If it were me i would get a gas engine for out side. Than there is a 3 phase generator if your still into using what you have.

    jack
    English machines
    Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 02-12-2013 at 03:06 PM.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by staker View Post
    I would like 3phase so I could have some speed control,and wire size , a 5hp with a vfd maybe .

    Dave
    I ran my mill with a VFD, not for speed control however, it was needed to run my free 3 phase motor.

    People were amazed with the ramp up and braking, and the electric mill was spooky quiet, you can actually hear the hiss of the blade cutting the wood.........Rod.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Thanks Jack, I would like the electric as it is cheaper to run, no noise niehbors are 20' away, and no fumes may want to enclose it for the rainy cooler weather. A friend has a gas on and shuts it down in November cuase it doesn't run right. I have been reading alot and see that their are folks running more than 240volt. Jack are you saying the 600 might run on 240, that would be great.

    Thanks Rod, I remember reading you thread and was impressed. I would like a 7.5-10hp 3ph. There are some 36" maple and black birch that I would like to saw up so figure the horsepower would be needed. Wood miser sells some mills with 10hp, and there was 1 made in the maritimes that had 2 5hp motors, that was just bought out by wood miser about 3-6 months ago.

    Im still researching on the motor and figure things out

    Dave
    Last edited by staker; 02-12-2013 at 08:16 PM.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    VFD's are a beautiful thing for control and going from 1ph to 3ph but keep the power clean and the voltage within tolerances and the motor will last much longer. It's become more common to run 1ph to 3ph VFD's in machines at the factories these days. You may be able to pick up components on EBAY for a reasonable cost. The easiest route, and probably the cheapest is to rent a gas/diesel 3ph genny when you're planning to use your machine.

  17. #57

    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by staker View Post
    Thanks Jack, I would like the electric as it is cheaper to run, no noise niehbors are 20' away, and no fumes may want to enclose it for the rainy cooler weather. A friend has a gas on and shuts it down in November cuase it doesn't run right. I have been reading alot and see that their are folks running more than 240volt. Jack are you saying the 600 might run on 240, that would be great.

    Thanks Rod, I remember reading you thread and was impressed. I would like a 7.5-10hp 3ph. There are some 36" maple and black birch that I would like to saw up so figure the horsepower would be needed. Wood miser sells some mills with 10hp, and there was 1 made in the maritimes that had 2 5hp motors, that was just bought out by wood miser about 3-6 months ago.

    Im still researching on the motor and figure things out

    Dave
    Dave would this single phase motor do the job.
    http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...AdIdZ452086475

    jack
    English machines

  18. #58
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Quote Originally Posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post
    Dave would this single phase motor do the job.
    http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...AdIdZ452086475

    jack
    English machines
    That would be good to run a 3 phase generator, It is not a motor I would want to start/stop very often. If the motor comes with an appropriate nema starter it is probably a good buy. The sawmill has to travel so the cabtire would have to be suspended from above and be about 20 feet long minimum, probably #3/3.
    I have a couple of Baldor 10hps here that I replaced with 3 phase so that I can use a vfd for soft start. The single phase bigger motors seem to go through capacitors quickly compared to 5hp and below. The old repulsion start motors last very well. My home made planer has a 7.5hp open frame RI motor that has never caused a problem in 80 years of service. It weighs 480lbs IIRC.
    Rob

  19. #59
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    I just saw this forum, and although I am in USA, not Canada, I thought it may be useful to fill in a lot of the blanks on Delta vs Wye power sources and transformers. I have designed and sold transformers and machine tool servos and spindles since 1975 - golly, now that I look, that is like 37years experience in this Electrical Engineering field! Dam_, I didn't want to know that..... But I digress....

    I was going to correct some of the erroneous comments on this thread by taking them one thread at a time from the OP but then someone on another forum I frequent asked a question that brought on a multitude of - mostly - correct D vs Y replies, along with a lot of good history WHY it is so. Bottom line is there are hundreds of thousands of industrial plants in the USA that have delta power sources: this means no nuetral or ground relative to the 3 phases guys. Of those, some are total floaters with earth ground as the ground, others are corner grounded for reference, and even others are center tapped on 1 phase grounded.

    I just saw references to "can't do 600v rpc since CEC code says no voltage to ground aboved 150v:" seems to me that since the STARTING HOUSE voltage was 240 with 120v to ground to START with, what happens DOWNSTREAM in 600v converted via rpc, transformer, or vfd should not be an issue. BTW, if you use a vfd, what do you think your voltage from any motor phase to ground is? (HINT: since no output is referenced to ground, it is same as the delta output from a transformer).

    If one builds an RPC, each 3ph to ground or neutral is NOT symmetrical even voltages. And I suggest even in Canada they would fail this CEC code thing of no more than 150v to ground from a phase since at least one of the 3ph outputs will be 240v to ground.....

    Please read the history behind, and the reasoning for, delta & wye connections of poco as well as transformers here before judging a method I saw suggested earlier by Rob (and working in the field) as no good:

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...40/index2.html

    All this said, OP wants a motor: I was just offered a 60hp 230/400/460v 60hp motor for free as it is about to be scrapped. I suspect this may be to heavy to ship economically to Canada but let me know if anyone wants me to pursue it: I would just ask say $ 100 for my efforts....

  20. #60
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    Default Re: 600volt rotary phase converter

    Welcome to the forum Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKE_KILROY View Post
    I was going to correct some of the erroneous comments on this thread by taking them one thread at a time from the OP but then someone on another forum I frequent asked a question that brought on a multitude of - mostly - correct D vs Y replies, along with a lot of good history WHY it is so. Bottom line is there are hundreds of thousands of industrial plants in the USA that have delta power sources: this means no nuetral or ground relative to the 3 phases guys. Of those, some are total floaters with earth ground as the ground, others are corner grounded for reference, and even others are center tapped on 1 phase grounded.

    I just saw references to "can't do 600v rpc since CEC code says no voltage to ground aboved 150v:" seems to me that since the STARTING HOUSE voltage was 240 with 120v to ground to START with, what happens DOWNSTREAM in 600v converted via rpc, transformer, or vfd should not be an issue
    The rules for residential enviroments are drastically different then those placed on the industrial sector. If one were to permanently install a RPC with a step up to 600v in their home, or their shop in a residentially zone area, that would be in violation of the CEC. Is the NEC any different in that regard...?

    I think there could be a loop hole if it were treated as a piece of equipment though. That would mean possibly building it on a cart, with a quick disconnecting means.

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